Talk:O sacrum convivium!

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:19, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

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Messiaen in 1937

• ... that O sacrum convivium!, an offertory motet for four-part choir written by Olivier Messiaen (pictured) at age 29, remained his only work in Latin and intended for the liturgy? Source: several

• Reviewed: Ospedale di San Carlo (Rome)

Created by Ron Oliver (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 21:43, 19 April 2020 (UTC).

• New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced. There is close paraphrasing in the article which needs to be put in quotes or rewritten in your own words:
• Source: unlike nearly all of his contemporaries, held an unshakable Catholic faith throughout his entire life
• Article: unlike many contemporaries, held an unshakeable faith throughout his entire life
• It seems that other phrases are pulled directly from the sources; I think you should go over them one by one and put in quotes any unusual wording, as I did with superhuman love. The cite for this sentence: Even though it is one of the composer's best-known works, he declared later that it was not representative of his compositional style. (footnote 4) does not verify anything.
• All the book sources need page numbers. The hook facts about him being 29 and writing the composition in Latin need inline cites. The image is very clear and public domain. QPQ done. Yoninah (talk) 05:13, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• I rephrased it in more chronological order. Ron? - The text - like all Catholic liturgical music is in Latin. Would we need a cite that Gloria is in Latin? Same for his age, calculating from date of birth, which source do we expect? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Ron, you may have to move or duplicate refs for the different order of facts, commission first. - Trimming the hook: drop the age as we are not sure about the date anyway, drop Latin, because if a reader doesn't see/know that it's Latin, s/he may not be interested in the whole thing. 1937 makes for a better match of pic and hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

ALT1: ... that O sacrum convivium!, an offertory motet for four-part choir probably completed by Olivier Messiaen (pictured) in 1937, remained his only work for the Catholic liturgy?

• I really wouldn't know how to rephrase it, but Messiaen was Catholic and a large portion of his works deals with religious topics. Including that would make for a much more interesting hook, in my opinion. Ron Oliver (talk) 18:35, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, close paraphrasing still remains in the article; indeed, the first printing of 1000 copies was not exhausted until the mid-1950s is a direct copy from the source. Yoninah requested that more work be done in this area, and still more is clearly needed. There are other issues in general: the block quote in Composition makes no sense where it is: I started reading it thinking it was contemporaneous with O sacrum convivium, only it turned out to be written 27 years later. I'd suggest a better lead-in, and perhaps summarizing the letter rather than reprinting the whole thing, perhaps with a representative quote or two. While I've made some textual changes for clarity, I think more are needed; "religious intentions", for example, is quite vague. Pinging Gerda Arendt and Ron Oliver. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:34, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

• I apologize for the delay. I have changed the direct quote from the source. I believe the block quote is important and should not be summarized. Messiaen offered an explanation for why he never chose to write works that were intended for liturgy, which is exactly what is brought up in the previous sentence. It was indeed written 27 years later, which is stated on the name of the source below the quote itself. I cannot see why that is a problem. Gerda Arendt? Ron Oliver (talk) 07:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• There are still no page numbers for the book refs. Yoninah (talk) 20:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Done for most refs. Ron Oliver (talk) 10:21, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Ron Oliver: thank you, and I added a few more. I added a "citation needed" tag in one place. Regarding ALT1, the article doesn't mention Catholic liturgy. Yoninah (talk) 17:02, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• It's been 2 weeks since my last post. If the issues aren't addressed by June 21, this nomination will be closed as unsuccessful. Yoninah (talk) 23:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Pinging nominator Gerda Arendt, and repinging Ron Oliver. It would be a shame for this not to proceed. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

  I'd love to help but can't read the mostly French sources. For France, Catholicism is the default denomination, - when they say liturgy, they mean Catholic, - what can we do there? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

  Found this, saying only liturgical motet, - and without being liturgical, why would it be in Latin. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:06, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

  This says so (p. 18), but would a thesis be reliable enough? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

• I agree with this. He was a Catholic, and liturgy is mentioned in the article. I'll be more specific there. Ron Oliver (talk) 15:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

• This nomination has gone stale. Marking for closure as unsuccessful. Yoninah (talk) 19:17, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

• I believe we did make the changes you requested back in June. Ron Oliver (talk) 20:02, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oh. And the page numbers?
• Gerda, could you look over the article and confirm that the changes were made to support the ALT1 hook? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 20:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

  I can't access books, and think it would be more important that BlueMoonset is happy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:48, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

• I can no longer access the book of the only ref that didn't have a page number. If that is too much of a problem, I'll take that out of the article. Ron Oliver (talk) 05:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Pinging BlueMoonset for the last word :) Yoninah (talk) 09:06, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Please allow me to suggest the following hook in case it is found interesting. Flibirigit (talk) 03:05, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• ALT2: ... that O sacrum convivium! is one of the best-known works by Olivier Messiaen (pictured), but he declared that it was not representative of his compositional style? [1](AGF on the source)

  I have been pinged. What can I say. Better nothing. This hook is better than no hook. (I swallow the rest.) The creator should say something, not I. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:07, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you. @Ron Oliver: we need your response now. Yoninah (talk) 15:16, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, that hook looks very interesting to me. I would be happy with it. Ron Oliver (talk) 06:27, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• But where does it say any of ALT2 in the source? Yoninah (talk) 18:34, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

  It in the book but on a different page, 467. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:08, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you! I corrected the page number in the article. ALT2 hook ref verified and cited inline. ALT2 good to go (at last!). Yoninah (talk) 20:17, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Even better is the Hill source, page 136, which also covers the "best-known" part in the same sentence ("two of his most popular compositions"). BlueMoonset (talk) 20:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• @BlueMoonset: that book source is offline for me. Would you like to add the cite to the article? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 20:48, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Yoninah, done; I replaced the cite that was there with the Hill one. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:22, 12 July 2020 (UTC)