Talk:Operation Ramrod 16

Expansion and revision

In the midst of expanding and revising the article for a B class review. Have created some 3rd level headers and will be filling in the gaps later. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 14:41, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@GraemeLeggett: Hello Graeme, I wondered where that note had come from, took me a bit by surprise. ;O) Some more narrative to come. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 19:24, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

"Leaning forward into France"

I presume "Leaning forward into France" is a quote from someone, we ought to mention who if possible. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Good point, I'll have to check but off me head it was Sholto Douglas. Keith-264 (talk) 12:49, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Took out the Bomber Command section as I doubt its relevance but might put a revised version in. Opinion? Keith-264 (talk) 14:42, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I think it worth mentioning that Bomber Command had put the mediums and heavies of other groups on "night shift" because of difficulties with protection from fighters is relevant (name drop Heligoland?) Also worth mentioning that on or about the time of the raid 2 Group went to 2nd TAF under Fighter Command? As to whether the poor coordination between fighters and bombers on this raid was down to split between chains of command... GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:55, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@GraemeLeggett: Yes, I need to find something succinct, Baughen may help. The narrative in Bowyer makes it clear that the two raids were part of the same operation so I need to better integrate them. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 18:36, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. Both part of Ramrod 16, or Ramrod 16 and the other as-yet-unnamed raid formed a single operation (with presumably another codename) GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:23, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Also. I notice that 487 was with 464 for the Philips raid in December 42. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I note that Bowyer has helpfully included a diagram pp. 310–311 entitled 12 Group Ramrod 16, 3.5.43 Amsterdam Power Station and Ijmuiden. It's got some more nitty gritty, there were a lot more Spitfires involved, 613 (rear cover), 302, 306, 308 waited at the Dutch coast to cover the bombers' withdrawal, 122 and 453 were the Mk IXs, "recalled at 5:30 p.m. at 27,000' 30 miles west of Zandvoort". 118 Squadron reached the edge of Amsterdam and escorted Bostons back to England. The diagram shows how close Amsterdam, Ijmuiden and Haarlem are. The diagram also plots the crash sites of the Venturas. I shall set to tomorrow, then put it in for a B if you agree. Keith-264 (talk) 20:06, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi Keith-264, GraemeLeggett, I've been following your work on this article with interest since I had envisaged spending some time on it when I was working on the Leonard Trent article. Great job! You may want to consider renaming the article though, in order to match its name as it is now described. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 21:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, it's nice to know that someone appreciates the effort. I've thought about it as it looks like it's been moved a few times already but it's late and I'm in the middle of a Pinot Noir frenzy so will think again tomorrow. ;O). Regards Keith-264 (talk) 21:30, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

C'mon, there's no better time for a page move than in the middle of a Pinot Noir frenzy! Zawed (talk) 01:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@GraemeLeggett: Hmmm, dozed off on the settee until roused by The Babe. I've set to with a replacement for the Bomber Command but am still looking for a succinct exposition....Keith-264 (talk) 14:08, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Order of battle

At this time - Too much detail. GraemeLeggett (talk) 07:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

What do you suggest? You can trim at your discretion if it's too much. Perhaps tuck things away in the efn section? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:30, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@GraemeLeggett: I'm having second thoughts about italicising terms like Target Support, any thoughts? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:04, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Having skimmed MOS:ITALICS it doesn't look like it's supported. How is it rendered in the sources? And what does "Target Support" actually mean? GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:11, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Spare fighters just in case.Keith-264 (talk) 14:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

We should say that at first mention of the phrase then and, given how many fighter squadrons are involved, which part of the raid they were the spares for. GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Found the description of the types of fighter cover on p. 230; I was hoping for something on the short range of the Spitfire to explain the relays. My impression from Bowyer is that circus was a generic term and the other terms described type of circus operation. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 09:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

If circus is the generic term then we might have to revisit the name and content of Circus offensive; 1) as it's not a specific offensive 20 what are currently described as "similar" missions are in fact varieties of Circus op. GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Having had another look, Circus Offensive might be the policy but the other terms describe types of operation within it. Perhaps a rodeo is a type of circus. I shall delve. Keith-264 (talk) 16:09, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

A more descriptive article name perhaps. And we might be able to get "Leaning into Europe" in the article somewhere. Looking at Circus I followed the link to Sholto Douglas's own description GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:05, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Very interesting, as were the comments below. Have you read Ray's The Battle Of Britain: Dowding and the First Victory, 1940? He rather givess the lie to those who think that Dowding was nobbled over big wings, rather than the night blitz.Keith-264 (talk) 19:14, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Written in 1948 there's bound to be some false memory, backside covering and trumpet blowing but I'm working on basis the broad outline re policy, ops and dates is close enough. Not read anything in depth on BoB period, I have got James Hollands BoB book on ebook library loan to go through. GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

I think that's about right. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:35, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

107 Squadron: their order of battle is a bit thin at the moment. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I took it from Bowyer, don't have anything else. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:25, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

In the Polish Air Force OH I Czynk gives numbers to Circus operations e.g. Circus 252 on 21 January 1943 p. 245. So they must be discrete operations after all. Keith-264 (talk) 16:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Terminology

I thought I'd start a space to list any terms or phrases that might be unclear or need explanation.:

• First, and so far, only item - "battle climb". Climb from height they flew in at to the bombing height presumably but what makes it different from a climb under other circumstances? GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:13, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Fast and steep Keith-264 (talk) 16:36, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

504 Squadron

Article says No. 504 were at Churchstanton which is Somerset. This is counterintuitive. Were they forward deployed to somewhere else for the purposes of the operation? .GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

According to [1] it was at RAF Ibsley in May 1943. RAF Ibsley is in Hampshire which can't be right. Ellingham in Norfolk is part of Ellingham, Harbridge and Ibsley civil parish but there's no RAF base listed there. Keith-264 (talk) 19:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Well we can only go by what sources say. And there's sources that put them at Churchstanton (Culmhead) and Ibsley Perhaps 504 shifted around the UK a lot for ops.GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Bowyer's diagram (pp. 310–311) has them based at Ibsley but Hampshire is about as far away from Coltishall as Coltishall is from north Holland. Most perplexing. I've put a question on the AHF website, might do some good. Keith-264 (talk) 20:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Delve Fighter Command 1936-1968 has 129, 504 and 616 squadrons at Ibsley in April. (p. 332) Keith-264 (talk) 21:16, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Class

I assumed that the recent change was a placeholder until we've finished.Keith-264 (talk) 09:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not in a position to check your refs and being 'involved' thought it might be a bit much to mark all the B-checklist as satisfied. I note that as it's in good position, we could flag up progress at Milhist talk page and see what our colleagues find/add. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:28, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Done Keith-264 (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I've got Bowman, M. W. The Reich Intruders: RAF Light Bomber Raids in WWII on order, it might have the brief history of early RAF operations I'm looking for. Keith-264 (talk) 12:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

From looking at the article on the Dornier Pfeil, and because people have mentioned it as a good read, I've started on Pierre Closterman's "the Big Show" and found he gives examples of various Circus/Ranger operations. So the info could spring up anywhere. GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

German units involved

According to the book by Prien on JG 1, 24 Fw 190s from II./JG 1 supported by 8 Bf 109s from 2./JG 27 were involved. German pilots claimed 11 aerial victories, 10 by pilots from JG 1 and one by a pilot from JG 27. JG 1 lost three Fw 190s in this engagement with two pilots killed in action. According to the book by Prien on JG 27, two Bf 109s sustained various degrees of combat damage but no plane was lost. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• Prien, Jochen; Rodeike, Peter (1993). Jagdgeschwader 1 und 11—Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung von 1939 bis 1945—Teil 1–1939–1943 [Jagdgeschwader 1 and 11—Operations in the Defense of the Reich from 1939 to 1945—Volume 1–1939–1943] (in German). Eutin, Germany: Struve-Druck. ISBN 978-3-923457-21-2.
• Prien, Jochen; Rodeike, Peter; Stemmer, Gerhard (1998). Messerschmidt Bf 109 im Einsatz bei Stab und I./Jagdgeschwader 27 1939 – 1945 [Messerschmidt Bf 109 in Action with the Headquarters Unit and I./Jagdgeschwader 27 in 1939 – 1945] (in German). Eutin, Germany: Struve-Druck. ISBN 978-3-923457-46-5.

I'll take those sources over eng lang ones any day, edit as you please. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 18:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits

I think the article is looking much better and the addition of German sources has remedied its somewhat Allied-centric bias. Keith-264 (talk) 06:58, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

B Class

Apropos the opinion that the article lacks brevity, I haven't seen many articles about BC/2 Group day raids. Oyster, Amiens, the Mosquito raids on Gestapo offices are the ones publicised at the time but the routine stuff is not re3corded here. Putting R 16 into context means much of the material for a general article is in this article's background and prelude. Keith-264 (talk) 10:27, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Jagdfliegerführer 3 (Jafü 3)

Would Major Gordon Gollob, 15 October 1942 – 6 September 1943 (cf Jagdfliegerführer 3) have been in charge of the Luftwaffe effort? Regards Keith-264 (talk)

Leaning....

Used Hinsley to fill the gap in the section up to Dieppe, still needs a bit from Aug 42 to the eve of R 16. Keith-264 (talk) 11:53, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

You know that once you've gotten all the detail there, we'll need it to pull:

• Circus offensive
• Royal Air Force daylight raids, 1940-1944
• RAF_Fighter_Command#1941_air_offensive and ** 1942%E2%80%9345
• History_of_the_Royal_Air_Force#World_War_II_(1939–1945)

etc up to scratch. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

• • It could work out quite well if the bulk of the information we've added already is transferable. I'm going to try to finish mining Fishman tomorrow. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 16:52, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I've done the mining but day shifts are so knackering now that I haven't had time to write it up. Keith-264 (talk) 18:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Anyone mind if I move this to Ramrod 16?

nm Keith-264 (talk) 18:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC)