Talk:Parliament of England

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Multiple issues with early history sections & References

Hello all!!

Considering that this article began as an attempt to compile a popular survey of the history of the English Parliament, it is an acceptable article. But in light of the fact the article has been rated "Top-importance" (WP England) & "High-importance" (WP Middle Ages), it still remains a C-class article after nearly 10 years.

Firstly, the Lead does not summarize the English Parliament. It includes a whole paragraph on Magna Carta, which is actually part of the pre-history of the English Parliament. (Albeit a very important part.)

Secondly, the early sections History, Parliament in the reign of Henry III, Emergence as an institution have a tendency to make blanket statements. There are implications to those statements that should be discussed further. For instance,

Nonetheless, Montfort's scheme was formally adopted by Edward I in the so-called "Model Parliament" of 1295. The attendance at parliament of knights and burgesses historically became known as the summoning of "the Commons", a term derived from the Norman French word "commune", literally translated as the "community of the realm".

There are literally decades of important events between those 2 sentences which are missing. (FYI, the 'commons' were not made permanent until 1327 by Edward III.) The sentence, as constructed, basically conflates the Model Parliament with the Good Parliament. (I'm not sure if that etymology is folk or not - no citation).

There is no attempt to highlight the landmark parliaments & why they are important. The entire History section is written "from hindsight", as though the evolution of English Parliament was an inevitable linear progression from Henry III until the time of political union with Scotland. I'm currently doing background research on the 14th & 15th century parliaments of the 3 Edwards, so I can't address the Tudor history with Parliament at this point.

Thirdly, the References and Sources are comprised of mostly popular surveys; no scholarly histories, such as Short History of Parliament: England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom (ed Clyve Jones 2009), Historical Studies of the English Parliament, Vols 1&2 (ed Fryde & Edward Miller 1970), The Constitutional History of England: In Its Origin and Development, multiple volumes (William Stubbs with no scholarly articles from Stubbs, 1877; an oldie but goodie), or the more recent JSTOR articles on significant Parliaments.

I am willing to tackle the cleanup, but it won't be for another month or so; I'm still hip-deep in another English Middle Ages article rewrite. In the meantime, any new suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

--AnalyticalHistoricalHobbyist (talk) 19:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to try to work on improving this article. I'm currently working on beefing up the history article of the UK monarchy and there is a lot of overlap in my research with the development of Parliament. I'll try to kill two birds with one stone so to speak. Ltwin (talk) 02:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the paragraph in the lede about Magna Carta and located the origin of Parliament in the great council. I've also been working on revising and sourcing the early history of Parliament. Ltwin (talk) 06:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oswestry Castle - doubted venue

The inclusion of Oswestry Castle, allegedly in 1398, in the list of places where parliament met that were outside London, is questionable. In the list of Parliaments of England, the only session that ever involved that year was that known as the 'Great Parliament' which began in 1397 and ended in January of 1398, meeting initially at Westminster but then adjourned to Shrewsbury Abbey. The article on Oswestry Castle mentions a parliament being held in 1398 but that statement is uncited (I have raised a citation need in that article).Cloptonson (talk) 16:53, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That whole section is unsourced. I'll try to check out the Parliament list articles and see if I can find some sources for verification. Ltwin (talk) 01:15, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

England's Parliament of 1089 at York

According to a charter of St Mary's Abbey, England's first "High Court of Parliament" was opened at York in 1089 by Stephen, Count of Treguier, brother of Alan Rufus. — unsigned comment added by User:Zoetropo, 11:50, June 3, 2021

Welsh before English?

"In 1295, Parliament evolved to include nobles and bishops as well as two representatives from each of the counties and towns in England and, since 1282, Wales." This language says that there was representation for Welsh counties and towns before there was the same for England. This can't be correct, can it? Lexicon (talk) 15:07, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"this edict" ??

From the article: "During his conduct of the war, Edward tried to circumvent parliament as much as possible, which caused this edict to be passed."

What edict? This is unclear. There's no reference to an edict or anything similar. (Or if there is, it's not clear.) This needs clarification. Omc (talk) 01:58, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing this out User:Omc. Ltwin (talk) 02:51, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that you are talking about the 3rd paragraph of the section "Formal separation of Lords and Commons". I'm in the process of rewriting the article (almost the entire thing is unsourced), but I haven't got to this section yet. I will try to improve and clarify this section soon. Ltwin (talk) 02:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Establishment date

There seems to be an issue over when Parliament was "established" in the infobox. As the article states, no great council or assembly of magnates and leading clerics was called "parliament" before the 1230s. There is no mention of a "parliament" in the 1215 text of Magna Carta - because it did not exist yet. The concept of Parliament evolved gradually in the early reign of Henry III. Magna Carta may have started the process of transforming the great council into parliament, but this process was not complete until the 1230s. I am going to add the circa 1230 date back into the infobox with a cited source. If User:AkbarKamall or the IP user wants to re-add the 1215 date, then you need to provide a reliable source. Ltwin (talk) 16:35, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]