Talk:Platanus × hispanica

On 6 August 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Platanus × acerifolia to Platanus × hispanica. The result of the discussion was moved.

Scan of leaf removed

The scan of the leaf of the London plane was removed by Imc stating "Removed image of leaf, does not seem to be London plane; see notes on talk page for the image." "This leaf is quite atypical of London plane, and looks like P. occidentalis to me. Unless the shape changes in the Florida climate."

I purchased the tree from National Arbor Day and they certainly know their trees. It's not the American sycamore as Imc thought. Noles1984 21:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I came here to see what the tree looked like. Despite several pictures on the page, I still have no clue. Some better pictures would be great (thinking wide angle with folliage) 67.189.53.239

Name

Per Wikipedia:Article titles and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), articles are normally titled using the most common English language name of the subject. WP:Article titles even gives the example "Guinea pig (not Cavia porcellus)." I do not suppose two people in a hundred would recognize Platanus × hispanica. Surely this article should be at London Plane tree or London Plane? Moonraker2 (talk) 00:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:FLORA. My understanding of WP:AT is that many factors weigh in when considering the title for the article. Chiefly, we look at the most commonly used name in reliable sources. But we also consider precision and consistency. There are apparently several vernacular names for this taxon. This makes the scientific name that more attractive for the title. I have updated the article to reflect the authoritative sources I found that said Platanus × hispanica is not the correct taxon name. Rkitko ^(talk) 14:16, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, I object to the edit summary "revert undiscussed move again". I raised the matter here well in advance of moving the page and no one responded. However, if you object to "undiscussed moves", then clearly the latest move to Platanus × acerifolia is undiscussed.

I'm not aware of "the most commonly used name in reliable sources" as part of naming policy. For instance, it doesn't seem to be at Wikipedia:Article titles. Can you please say where it comes from? What is said on that page is "This page in a nutshell: Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources", which is quite different. Moonraker2 (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How else would you expect us to assess the most common usage? A poll of four random people on the street? No. We have to go by how the article topic is discussed in reliable sources. And not every page is watchlisted by people interesting in discussing the move. You posted a comment here and did not invite comment from anyone else at any project or noticeboard. If you used the system at WP:RM, it would have shown up on the WP:PLANTS article alerts (Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants/Article alerts) and then at least plant editors could have commented. And there's a big difference between a controversial move to a vernacular name (that had been reverted before) and a non-controversial move to the accepted scientific name from an outdated scientific name to reflect changes in taxonomy (or in this case, the epithet hispanica hasn't been used in ages because of it's dubious nature). If you want to propose the move, use {{Requested move}} and support it with your argument. Rkitko ^(talk) 23:04, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps some google hits may convince you that a requested move may be unnecessary, though. I find more google books and scholar hits for "Platanus acerifolia" combined with "Platanus x acerifolia" (with an x, not ×) than "London plane tree" or "London plane-tree" or "London planetree". So the scientific name appears to be the most commonly used name in reliable sources. Further, there are multiple vernacular names, which means you'd have to choose one style, whereas the scientific name is unambiguous and much more precise than a vernacular name. Rkitko ^(talk) 23:17, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That does not reply to my question. I asked what substantiates "the most commonly used name in reliable sources" as part of naming policy. You have repeated the expression without answering. Can you please say where it comes from? Moonraker2 (talk) 08:19, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the point of this discussion was to determine the most commonly used name. But if you insist... My quote above is simply a paraphrase of what WP:AT says several times. In fact, you quoted the first instance above ("In a nutshell..."). It's very much the same thing. And again under Recognizability, it says, "One important aspect of this is the use of names most frequently used by English-language reliable sources to refer to the subject." And again under Common names, it says, "Articles are normally titled using the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject of the article in English-language reliable sources." As I just showed above, the most frequently used name in reliable sources is, in fact, Platanus × acerifolia. Rkitko ^(talk) 13:07, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A "reliable" source is not the same thing as a scholarly source. How do you determine something's "common name" from scientific journals which have an interest in presenting scientific and unambiguous names? You have to include newspapers, magazines, books and other non-scholarly literature in your research. How many sources that refer to London Plane, identify this as the most common name? I would estimate that most of them do. If you're writing about this tree, you're either writing for an informed audience in which case you use platanus × acerifolia exclusively to avoid ambiguity. Otherwise you may still mention platanus × acerifolia but also relate it to its common name for the benefit of the uninformed audience. So it stands to reason you're always going to find more papers and books that mention platanus × acerifolia in an academic search. It's worth doing a search of non-scholarly resources to see how often "London Plane" is mentioned without Platanus × acerifolia. If this turns out to be more common in (for example) newspaper articles then there might be a case for using "London Plane". Personally, I've never heard of platanus × acerifolia but I lived where London Plane trees are common, for a very long time, and it seems to me that you can't get a much more "common" name for a tree than that ;) — Preceding Goffmog (talk) 14:45, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's important to consider the whole of WP:AT, not just the "common name" part. Precision is also important. My experience of using Google to search suggests that only "London Plane tree" produces the correct meaning as the top entries returned; "London Plane" is just too ambiguous. There could, I suppose, be a case for the article being called "London plane tree", but the variants "London planetree" and "London plane-tree" are also quite common. I can't see that any of these would be an improvement. Redirects take care of searches. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:02, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Issue with GRIN reference

The link to the GRIN page now gives Platanus x hispanica as the accepted name and Platanus x acerifolia as a junior synonym. The other reference ([1]) is clarification of the definition of nomen dubium/nudum and really doesn't belong here (perhaps better as a note, or botanical glossary pop-up). Given that this taxon is used as an illustration of a rejected name in some GBIF nomenclatural documents it would be nice if this was better supported by explicit references. P. hispanica is still accepted, for instance, by British botanists, it was not revised by Stace in 2019 (p. 130). Somewhere I've seen this paper as a possible source, but it's paywalled. Semudobia (talk) Semudobia (talk) 21:58, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved as an uncontested request with minimal participation. If there is any objection within a reasonable time frame, please ask me to reopen the discussion; if I am not available, please ask at the technical requests page. (non-admin closure) Waqar💬 07:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Platanus × acerifolia → Platanus × hispanica – the oldest valid name for this hybrid. Accepted as such by POWO and others. Long overdue here; Wikispecies, Commons, and many/most other wikipedias followed this several years ago. - MPF (talk) 19:43, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No opinion, but note that the article currently states with two cites, "The other name commonly used for this taxon, Platanus × hispanica auct. non Mill. ex Münchh., is a nomen dubium based on an uncertain description." Dekimasuよ! 23:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's an old opinion, long since rejected by anyone who has actually read Münchhausen's protologue (until it was digitised, very hard to find a copy to read), as witness that neither POWO, nor GRIN, express any such reservations - MPF (talk) 23:30, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Plantdrew (talk) 15:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 3 November 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Platanus × hispanica be renamed and moved to London plane.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Platanus × hispanica → London plane – WP:COMMONNAME Kolano123 (talk) 10:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per many, many sources. YorkshireExpat (talk) 12:12, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Looking at the Google Books Ngram Viewer starting at 2000 the name "London plane tree" has more hits from 2015 onward than does honey locust which is also at its common name. I used the full phrase London plane tree rather than just London plane to get rid of potential confusion with air travel to London, just in case. Using London plane makes it even clearer that this tree is well known. The other common name for the species, hybrid plane, comes in a distant, distant 5th in this Ngram. Doing a websearch for the exact phrase "London plane" using both DuckDuckGo and Google finds the tree as the first page of results and no mentions of air travel so no confusion there. The average reader is not going to be surprised by this result. It is economically and culturally important as a very commonly used street tree as such moving it would follow the guidelines in WP:FLORATITLES. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 02:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

oppose per WP:NCFLORA this is a botany article and the tree isn't of particular importance in some other field—blindlynx 02:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator comment I see many, many sources calling it London plane. So it's truly its common name. Kolano123 (talk) 20:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but wp:commonname doesn't apply in this case because wp:ncflora explicitly says Scientific names are to be used as article titles in all cases except when a plant has an agricultural, horticultural, economic or cultural role or use that makes it more prominent in some other field than in botany. So you have to show that it is prominent in some field other than botany while this article is entirely a botany one—blindlynx 23:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Different editor replying. This is a prominent horticultural tree. The article has an extensive cultivation section talking about its worldwide usage as an urban tree. Likewise searches of reliable sources like university websites and cooperative extension finds pages where it is prominently featured for its use in cities and management of its diseases. Often or usually the scientific name is mentioned, but the common name is used in the rest of the article.

Examples:
North Carolina Extension Gardener Plant Toolbox

University of Arizona Cooperative Extension

New Mexico State University - Managing Sycamore Scale

PennState Extension - A Green Solution to Stormwater Management

Horticulture is not just food crops, but also ornamental plantings. This is not a case of a plant that is occasionally or incidentally used for ornamental purposes, but a tree that is one of the most often planted trees with a greater prominence than the honey locust, especially when the world outside the United States is considered. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 00:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1 YorkshireExpat (talk) 11:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but that's not a valid comment. What do you mean? Kolano123 (talk) 16:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you meant to support my comment. While I appreciate your intention my understanding is that comments beyond supporting or opposing a move should be limited to adding additional information to the discussion. WP:RMCOMMENT 🌿MtBotany (talk) 23:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to say that's what I would have typed, but you'd already done it. YorkshireExpat (talk) 11:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]