Talk:Railway porter

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Requested move 9 March 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to "Railway porter". There was a clear consensus to move the page away from the former title and I've determined "railway porter" is the best option per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS. I realize WP:RETAIN has been raised as an issue, but I would note the article (except for the title) already uses British spellings and that the usage of railway tends to be more widespread than railroad. (closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 18:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Porter (railroad) → Porter (rail) – The universal international term is "railway", not "railroad", which is generally restricted to North America. But "rail" conveniently covers both of these without being specific to speakers of any variety of English per MOS:COMMONALITY and is just as commonly understood and appropriate. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:22, 9 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 14:56, 21 March 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Turnagra (talk) 19:46, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support alternate move to Railway porter Per Collins English Dictionary and WP:NATURAL. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I would agree with that on principle (and as I'm British would of course be happy with it), although, to be neutral, it again creates the problem of the different usage in North America and elsewhere. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:29, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support "rail" is more neutral and simple, per Talk:Railway track#Requested move 19 October 2021 there may be a case for using "railway" but unless that's acceptable in American English we should probably use just "rail". Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moving it to "rail" from "railroad" would still violate WP:RETAIN. At least the alternate proposal to move it to Railway porter, while it would violate WP:RETAIN, would be supported by WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose based on WP:RETAIN. Moving it to Railway porter is tempting, because I do generally prefer naturally disambiguated titles over parenthetical disambiguation, but it would also violate WP:RETAIN. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Rreagan007: As I understand you're opposing the alternative Railway porter, are you also opposing the suggested Porter (rail)? This title seems most appropriate per WP:COMMONALITY. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am opposing the original proposal of "Porter (rail)". Both it at the alternate "Railway porter" violate WP:RETAIN, but I would be more inclined to support Railway porter based on WP:NATURAL. Right now I would say that I am neutral on the alternate proposal of "Railway porter". I am unsure if a naturally disambiguated title is a good enough reason for an exception to WP:RETAIN in this case, but it might be. I'll give it some more thought. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:59, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative proposal, move to Railroad porter. After thinking about it, there is no need to violate WP:RETAIN in order to naturally disambiguate the title, as "railroad porter" is also a term that is used for this topic. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Rreagan007: While I understand "Porter (railway)" would violate WP:RETAIN I don't think "Porter (rail)" does since "railroad" is American only and "railway" is British only while just "rail" is neutral per MOS:COMMONALITY which allows moving from a variety specific to an international one. Per WP:TITLEVAR "Very occasionally, a less common but non-nation-specific term is selected to avoid having to choose between national varieties: for example, soft drink was selected to avoid the choice between the British fizzy drink, American soda, American and Canadian pop, and a slew of other nation- and region-specific names". Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:22, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that "railway" isn't British only. It's the international standard English term used almost everywhere except North America. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:09, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oddly the Ordnance Survey (the last result) does seem to use "railroad station" though otherwise I've never heard of the term used in British English. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:24, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative use Porter (train employee) or Porter (rail employee) or Porter (train station employee); "train" and "train station" avoids the railroad/railway issue. -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 22:38, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rough consensus to move, but to what title?[edit]

Hi all, I saw this in WP Trains article alerts, and while there appears to be a rough consensus to move from the present title, there's no consensus as to what title to move to. Rather than just closing this as no consensus, we should try and find consensus for a specific term. The following names have been proposed:

Porter (rail)
Railway porter
Railroad porter
Porter (train employee)
Porter (rail employee)
Porter (train station employee)

Personally I think any of the first three would be acceptable. Pinging @Necrothesp: @Zxcvbnm: @Crouch, Swale: @Rreagan007: @65.92.246.142:Trainsandotherthings (talk) 13:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I still favour the first, as applying WP:NATURAL still causes us problems with WP:ENGVAR. However, if we go with natural disambiguation then WP:COMMONALITY would mandate "railway", as it's the universal word (used in North America as well) whereas "railroad" is specific to North America and rarely used elsewhere. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd still say the 1st as COMMONALITY trumps RETAIN and even NATURAL but the 2nd is also an option as that appears to somewhat satisfy COMMONALITY. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:33, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would definitely support railway porter due to WP:NATURAL. It is just one type of porter. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:49, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support either of the first two. Railroad is too North American, and the last 3 options are less WP:CONCISE. Also would not object to Porter (railway). -Kj cheetham (talk) 23:33, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I support either of the first two options. The first option especially does not favour any English language variation. NemesisAT (talk) 18:21, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.