Talk:Ramsay Bolton

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Checked OK.— TAnthony^Talk 02:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 26 July 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. The nominator has withdrawn the requested move. Cúchullain ^t/c 13:24, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

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Ramsay Bolton → Ramsay Snow – Per WP:NPOVTITLE. Within the world of A Song of Ice and Fire, Ramsay's legitimization document is itself controversial, as it was issued by a king who is himself a bastard born of incest between the queen consort and her brother, a King's Guard sworn to celibacy. Probably a majority of characters in both the books and show reject the authority of his legitimization documentation, and in the show his and his father's betrayal of the crown, and his own subsequent betrayal of his father, means that probably no one would call him "Bolton" except perhaps as a result of sloppy screenwriting. The only people who call him "Bolton" in the books are game-players who know Tommen is not a legitimate monarch but don't care, and people like Theon who are scared to death that he will torture them; since he's a fictional character there's no reason for us to be afraid of him. WP:COMMONNAME and the recognizability criterion do not really apply, since both are in common use in real-world secondary sources and are equally recognizable/meaningful for anyone familiar with the story. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Then again I can't see how this is going to pass at this point (I'm going to avoid making any awkward puns, mind you :P ). Three of the "keep" !votes have made nonsense arguments about WP:COMMONNAME (which explicitly states that it doesn't overrule the other criteria when multiple names are in common use and equally recognizeable), one of them showing a pretty gross misunderstanding of the applicability of WP:NOR; the fourth didn't even make an argument, and clearly only !voted against this proposal because he doesn't like me. But I know better than to fight battles that there would be no point winning, so you can consider this proposal withdrawn. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:57, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

You never made a real argument why one name was better than the other. But by all means, dismiss/insult those who disagree with you and then take your crayons and go home. Very mature.— TAnthony^Talk 00:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

• I really should have seen it coming that someone would come along and make a bogus COMMONNAME argument that shows a misunderstanding of what COMMONNAME actually says. But I don't want that to undermine this RM, so I might as well post the evidence.
  • GBooks: 1,690 using only Bolton vs. 1,190 using only Snow
  • GNews: 1,170 using both vs. 7,360 using only Bolton vs. 944 using only Snow (threw "Iwan Rheon" into the search to keep out results that only give him a passing reference, which are not reliable sources for discussion of this topic anyway)

So yeah, more sources use "Bolton" for in-universe, unencyclopedic reasons, but they all assume a knowledge of "Snow", and indeed there are plenty of sources that use "Snow" and not "Bolton". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:37, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

The basis for your argument seems very in-universe and OR to me; as this is a real-world encyclopedia, WP:COMMONNAME certainly applies and the name of the article should reflect the name by which the character is most commonly/popularly known in the real world. I know you feel strongly in general that the books are the primary topic for ASOIAF (and I don't disagree), but the popularity of the show has broadened its impact and certainly affected its mainstream perception. I don't know what the common name is at this point, but we shouldn't be using our interpretation of the storyline to determine it.— TAnthony^Talk 22:49, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:COMMONAME says Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. Not sure why your snarky comment is suggesting that I don't understand it, since it's exactly what I'm saying. Look to the sources. Whatever else you're arguing about legitimization or Tommen or whatever is irrelevant. BTW, how are you classifying some of the search results as "in-universe, unencyclopedic"? I'm trying to make sense of the results. Also, I'm wondering if you would create an article called Asha Greyjoy or Yara Greyjoy? This seems like a perfect example of books vs TV that could shed some light here.— TAnthony^Talk 00:15, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Weird random fact: the HBO cast splash page says Bolton but the character page itself says Snow.— TAnthony^Talk 00:29, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

The Google results, while not the only consideration, seem to me to favor Bolton.— TAnthony^Talk 00:30, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: Ramsay Bolton is the name the character is most known and called by. - AffeL (talk) 16:07, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

AffeL, we don't use the "official" names of fictional characters. There's no need to respect the wishes of Ramsay himself, because he doesn't exist. Most of the characters in the books/show have some specific motivation to do so (fear of retaliation, desire to hold up Tommen's baseless claim to the throne...). Even if we are only going by entertainment sources covering the show: given that the character was mentioned several times in Season Two and then became a major character for all of Seasons 3, 4 and 5, up to Season 6 episode 9, and "officially became" Ramsay Bolton a couple of episodes into Season 5, he was Ramsay Snow for a longer run of episodes. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Also note to closer: The above user has been going around reverting a lot of my edits because I'm the one who made them over the past two months or so. Take that for what it's worth. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Hijiri, you seem to be suggesting that AffeL's opposition to this move has something to do with your ongoing rivalry, and these kinds of accusations are not appropriate for this discussion, thanks. Also it shouldn't surprise you that you two are on opposite sides, LOL. As far as the move itself, what are the sources saying? I think the the TV series coverage will be overwhelming and decide this one way or the other.— TAnthony^Talk 22:43, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

No, for all I know AffeL's opposition is based on his opposing every GOT-related RM and AFD as much as his dislike of me. But yes, !votes that are clearly problematic because of some on-wiki trouble (and AffeL has been hounding me over the past two months) tend to be given less weight. As for what the sources say -- what does it matter? The sources either use the names interchangeably, or use one or the other and assume awareness of whichever they don't use. COMMONNAME doesn't apply when both names are in equally common use. I imagine the TV show coverage is roughly divided between those sources written in 2012-2015ish and those written in 2015ish-2016, with sources written after the character died either completely neglecting him because he's dead, reverting back to "Snow" because (let's be honest) that was his legal name according to the laws of gods and men among everyone who knew Tommen's parentage, i.e. everyone in the real world who knows who Tommen is, or clumsily maintaining "Bolton" in its piecemeal coverage of a dead character they didn't think about a whole lot. So yeah, I can't see how GOT sources would give priority to "Bolton" in the long run. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:37, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

In this case I think AffeL was saying that Ramsay "is most known and called by" Bolton in the real world, not in-universe. I don't know if he's right or wrong.— TAnthony^Talk 00:15, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Ramsay Bolton is the WP:COMMONNAME, it's what he is most known for in the real world. That's why the Ned Stark article is named Ned Stark and not Eddard Stark, even though Eddard is the characters real name. Also I don't appreciate you making all these silly accusations, just because I happen not to agree with you on something. - AffeL (talk) 13:38, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is a pretty clear WP:COMMONNAME issue, surely? Ramsay Bolton is the name the character is referred to by The New York Times, The Times, The Times of India, The Los Angeles Times, The Guardian, The Telegraph, The Wall Street Journal, and The Sydney Morning Herald, amongst others. A bright cold day in april (talk) 10:59, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

References

@A bright cold day in april: WP:COMMONNAME applies to cases like Jiang Jieshi where there is one technically correct or systematically consistent name that almost no one uses, and another overwhelmingly more common and recognizeable name. With perhaps one exception, all the examples listed at COMMONNAME fall within this category, where almost none of our readers would recognize the less common alternatives. The portion of COMMONNAME relevant to this RM is actually When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. In this case, all the sources you list were written by and for people who would have had no problem recognizing "Ramsay Snow". The primary sources (the books and show) have a far larger readership/viewership than any one secondary source, or even all secondary sources combined, and use the two names interchangeably, so a search of secondary sources cannot demonstrate that one name is overwhelmingly more common or that the other is generally unrecognizeable. The primary sources also prefer "Ramsay Snow" and are clear on "Ramsay Bolton" being technically incorrect. Heck, the last episode in which he appeared had a title that explicitly referred to him as a Snow and not a Bolton. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: Bolton seems to outweigh Snow among reliable sources, unless I'm missing something.— TAnthony^Talk 15:24, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

@TAnthony: See above (or your own talk page). COMMONNAME doesn't outweigh other naming criteria when the "less common" name is just as widely recognized. This is clear both from the text of COMMONNAME and the examples given of its application. For all we know the newspapers listed above chose to use "Bolton" simply to avoid confusion among those of their readers who have never watched an episode of Game of Thrones but for some reason are reading a newspaper article that named Roose Bolton and his son Ramsay Snow. I don't know if many of Wikipedia's readers fall into this category (or even if such readers exist?), but we provide both names in our lead sentence anyway. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

If we can establish that Snow and Bolton are more or less interchangeable, and neither outweighs the other, that's fine. All I've been saying is that, while we can look to usage in the primary sources for guidance from Martin's perspective, deciding the character's "real name" based on our own interpretations of the plot and what other characters think is not acceptable. To me, your original argument was on those terms. Newspapers may very well use one over the other for reasons of confusion, and that goes to my point. If the mainstream world knows the character more as "Ramsey Snow" (for whatever reason) then that's how we should refer to him. This is why Princess Leia is still the name of the article even though the character has not technically been a princess in 40 years. This is why I would argue that a future article should probably be Yara Greyjoy rather than Asha Greyjoy, because more people likely now know her by that name.— TAnthony^Talk 15:40, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose It seems fairly clear to me that we should stick to Bolton. Secondary sources support Ramsay Bolton over Ramsey Snow, and the TV show also refers to him as Bolton in spite of the legitimacy and it is simply absurd to claim that the only people who do that are game-players. You can call that sloppy screenwriting, but it ultimately doesn't matter, because it supports the use of Bolton as his surname. The books are far more debatable, but overall the evidence supports the conclusion that people are far less familiar with Snow. Somethingwickedly (talk) 14:00, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

@Somethingwickedly: Your comment doesn't make a lot of sense. Did you mean to write "illegitimacy" and instead wrote "legitimacy"? Or did you get the two names mixed up and you are actually in favour of the move "in spite of the legitimacy"? The show refers to him by both names, and in fact much more noticeably calls him a bastard than a true-born son (see, for example, the title of episode 9 of season 5). The fact that people not familiar with the series might be confused by "Snow" is irrelevant, because we can't assume readers of an obscure character article will have their minds blown by the article being titled for the character's in-universe name rather than to conform to modern Anglo-American naming conventions. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:50, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose I oppose it, not only because Ramsay Bolton is the common name, but because as long as I remember he receives a a decree of legitimization from King Tommen in A Storm of Swords. It's true that Tommen isn't a trueborn either but he's the King, and in the books the commoners recognize him as the son of Robert. Besides, Ramsay was also legitimized on the TV show, so he's technically a Bolton and not a Snow anymore, and that's the reason why Ramsay Bolton is more commonly used. Keivan.f^Talk 03:00, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: "Ramsay Bolton" is arguably the name is he best known for. In fact, he is not presented as "Ramsay Snow" for very long. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 02:14, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.