Talk:Saltville, Virginia

This article is very incomplete

Anyone who lives in Saltville, please do what you can to make this article better. There are a lot of amazing things in this town that need to be documented, and not to be offensive, but Saltville . org does not do this town justice. As of now, this article is more up to date than that website. What I am trying to say here is that we need to show a little care for our town, and, even if you do not live in Saltville, maybe you know something to add to this article. I will do what I can, but I am only one person, and I schedule that does not allow for much work to be done towards this article. But if any one does have the time or the knowledge, please use it to make this article more complete. There are so many things that could be told about this town, the two civil war battles, the museum, the archeological digs that have recovered Woolly Mammoth skeletons and Native American artifacts. This town is full of history and if no one documents this, then it will be lost forever. Most of this town's history is oral, so go, talk to those who know about the events of this town's past, and then put it here. If you are one of those who does know a great deal about this town's past, I beg of you, please add to this article. A small group of students at Northwood High School, in something they call The History Club, has set out to do exactly what I am saying here, trying to document this town's amazing history. Pocahontas was not the first Native American woman to marry a white man, that happened in the 1570's and the woman's name was Luisa Menendez. She was born and raised in the Chiska village called Maniatique, which was exactly where Northwood High School sets today. This is hard to believe, but I promise, I have talked with the historians. This town has an incredible past, and it is time to shine light on the untold story of the Salt Capital of the Confederacy. Anyone who reads this and knows anything about Saltville that is not in this article, put it on here. Find a source if you can, but if you cannot, maybe someone else can. As I have said, much of the history of Saltville is not even written down, and what little of it is written down is unknown. I shall now end my rant with a repeat of what I said before, if anyone knows anything about Saltville, please add it to this article, before the history of Saltville is lost forever. Meepinator (talk) 14:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I fully sympathize with the desire to do what you ask but there are some important caveats that relate to the process of writing articles for Wikipedia:

• "Most of this town's history is oral, so go, talk to those who know about the events of this town's past, and then put it here." - No! Please don't do that!! Wikipedia does not allow this kind of information here. We need to have information that our reader can go and check for themselves (and going back to the town and finding the same person you spoke to and getting the story from them doesn't count!). We have to have information that can be referenced back to source material like books, journals, magazines, newspapers and such. This is embodies in our WP:V "Verification" and WP:RS "Reliable sources" guidelines.

• "If you are one of those who does know a great deal about this town's past, I beg of you, please add to this article." - Again, No! This is called "Original Research" and Wikipedia doesn't allow that either. Our guideline WP:NOR "no original research" explains this. Once again, we're not interested in what you, personally know because (believe it or not) lots of people come here and write downright lies and fabrications. We're interested in local experts only because of what books, journals, etc they can summarize and point our readers towards. We require this so that readers who want more information or merely to confirm that what we say is true can click on the little blue number next to a properly reference fact and find out where we got this information from - then (if they so desire) go and read it for themselves.

• If the "history club" has written this stuff down somewhere where the public can find it - then by all means let us reference that. Then we can say here "Such and such is true^[123]" and the little blue number will link to something that people can look up online or in a library. Ideally, we should refer to the history club's documents - which in turn (if they are proper scholarly writings) would explain how they got this information.

• If you have information which you believe to be true - but for which you have no references, then please don't put it into the article. If you like, you can mention it here on the talk page and ask for others to find references for you - but until/unless they do, it can't go into the article.

SteveBaker (talk) 20:19, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Removal of other editors comments on this talk page.

My I remind everyone that we do not delete, edit or otherwise mess with, other editors comments on talk pages - except under extreme and carefully circumscribed conditions. Doing so to remove an honestly expressed opinion about the content of the article (as it was here) is never OK. The (few) situations where this is appropriate are outlined in Wikipedia:TALK#Editing_comments. When you do feel that it's necessary to remove something from a talk page, you are required to leave a note here in place of the stuff you removed, carefully explaining why you removed it. Simply deleting someone else's remarks without explaining why is very, very bad indeed. SteveBaker (talk) 20:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

The edit you're referring to is a year old, and was by an editor who hasn't otherwise edited this article or its talk page. I doubt they will see this message. --Amble (talk) 21:33, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Spanish stuff

I've looked at a few sources. As far as I can see the reliable sources say that the expedition probably destroyed a village that was somewhere in the vicinity of Saltwell. The cliam that it was exactly on the site of Saltwell seems to come from Jim Glanville, a retired chemistry professor who has turned to local history. His paper was published in "Historical Society of Western Virginia Journal". As far as I can tell this a journal of amateur local historians, not a peer reviewed scholarly journal. Here is Glanville's article [1]. The article includes mock-ups of plaques he envisages putting up at the supposed sites of various events, including the "First Battle of Saltville" at the site of the school. No evidence whatever is provided that the school is known to be the site of any battle. I'm guessing this is a local campaign supported by amateur historians who have convinced themselves they have identified the exact sites of these events, but as far as I can see there is continuing uncertainty among specialists about the actual location of events. Paul B (talk) 19:43, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, if there are no reliable sources (like peer-reviewed journals) then anything that's controversial enough to demand a source should simply be removed. The discussion at WP:FRINGE suggested that this is a "fringe" matter and should be treated as such. I'm not entirely convinced that it is that - but even if it is, we don't put fringe opinions into articles that are not directly about that subject. Since this article is about a town - not about the specific question we're debating here - then our guidelines are clear, we simply shouldn't mention the fringe theory in this article. If there were an article called First Battle of Saltville or something, then you could argue that this is a "notable" fringe theory and treat Glanville's theories accordingly in that article. But here, in this article, that would be a complete "no-no". It's just like we have an article "Flat Earth" but don't mention the flat earth theory in the "Earth" article because it's not mainstream. SteveBaker (talk) 15:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

The "battle" is the destruction of the village (presumably there was also a "second" battle of Saltville, but I've no idea what that was). Clearly this event took place, the question is where. As for the claim about the identity of a local native tribe, which Rockhead56 also complained of, it seemsd to be uncertain, but not greatly disputed. However, Rockhead56 does not seem to want to engage in discussion about the dispute here. Paul B (talk) 16:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah the "Second Battle" would be Battle of Saltville I (presumably to be renamed Battle of Saltville II). Paul B (talk) 16:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Olin chemical company not mentioned

The Olin chemical company was this towns primary employer for decades yet is not mentioned in this article. Also, Saltville (because of pollution from the plant) was one of the first "Super Fund" sites in the U.S. Also not mentioned. These are important parts of the town's history and should be included. 2601:140:8302:1380:4CA6:586F:7169:9BA4 (talk) 16:10, 5 February 2016 (UTC)Zachary Corrigan

Hello Zachary - you are more than welcome to add that information to the article.--Mojo Hand (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

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Photo and Tom Buchanan

Magnolia677You deleted the part of the caption from the photo "downtown saltville in 1967" stating the name of the photographer. He is a well known photographer in the area of southwest Virginia, and it is notable to state where the photo was taken for the historical context of the Company Store which has since been demolished and was previously a well known landmark due to its connection to the Olin Corporation which was a significant part of the town's history during the first three quarters of the 20th century, including being the location where rocket fuel used for the Apollo program and moon landings was processed.

This is a quote from the email I received from the photographer when I asked him for permission to post the photo on Wikipedia: "[Y]ou may use the photo of Saltville in 1967. All I ask is photo credit.". As you can see, he specifically asked for "photo credit". If you insist on removing that part of the caption in violation of the terms of the photographer's permission, then remove the entire photo instead.

As for removing the mention of Tom Buchanan, his name has been on that page for many years, if not over a decade. I was not the one who added his name to the article. He previously did have a wikipedia article devoted solely to him before it was merged with the article for Survivor: Africa. I see nothing in the Wikipedia guidelines that would justify his name being removed. He's definitely more well-known in the area around Saltville than most of the other people listed on the article.Vontheri (talk) 13:00, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Tom Buchanan's does not have a Wikipedia article. At WP:USCITIES#Notable people, a consensus of editors have agreed that, "If challenged, additions without their own article should be removed and discussed on the talk page of the city, until a consensus is reached." Although Tom Buchanan is listed at List of Survivor (U.S. TV series) contestants, and was mentioned in this local news story, they nonetheless appear notable only for one event, and fail WP:BASIC, WP:ANYBIO, and WP:ENTERTAINER. This person should not be included in the "notable people" section of this article.

Regarding the inclusion of the name of the photographer of this image in the caption of the article, "Don Smith" does not appear to be a notable photographer, and his name should not be included in the photo caption, per MOS:CREDITS. If the photographer stated "[Y]ou may use the photo of Saltville in 1967. All I ask is photo credit", then this has been met; information about the photographer is included on the photo's file. Finally, the file for this photo only states "Photo by Don Smith of downtown Saltville, Virginia in 1967". Any information about where it was taken, or about the since-demolished Olin Company Store, will need a reliable source. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:43, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

I am confident that if any effort to achieve consensus includes people who are actually from or have connection with Saltville, then the consensus would be to include Tom Buchanan on the list. Normally a consensus for issues on a wikipedia article's talk page are mostly participated in by people who have at least some familiarity/expertise on the topic, and if that is going to be the case regarding this, then I'm as confident as can be about what the result would be. During the time that he was on Survivor, he was practically worshiped in the town. He was viewed as bringing a spotlight on what is usually an ignored small town. I really think it's safe to say that, at least in the eyes of the town's residents, he is the most famous person from the town. Since this article gets little traffic, and the talk page appears to be very sparsely used, I'm not sure how long it would take to achieve any sort of consensus. How can we go about achieving consensus for this, on a talk page of an article with such little activity?

I'm not sure how you would get a reliable source to reference about where a photograph was taken that is not a famous photograph. The source for where it was taken is the photographer himself. Also, anyone familiar with the town at that time would know from the view/angle/direction of the photograph that it could only have been taken from the Company Store. How can I go about reliably sourcing where it was taken in a way that would meet your approval? If simply including where it was taken in the file name of the photo would do it, then is there a way I can change the file name, given that I am the person who uploaded the photo? I think obviously I would know where it was taken, given that I received that information from the photographer himself!

I interpreted the photographer's request for "photo credit" as meaning in the article. I hate to have to bother him, but I suppose I will have to ask him for clarification. If I interpreted his request correctly, then his permission will have been invalid since it was based on conditions that have not been met. Vontheri (talk) 23:48, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

"Notable" means "has, or merits, a Wikipedia article". That's how it's always used in lists of notable things. From Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tom_Buchanan, he is plainly not notable in that sense. Pinkbeast (talk) 06:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Pinkbeast: If you'll notice, the page WP:USCITIES#Notable people states "If challenged, additions without their own article should be removed and discussed on the talk page of the city, until a consensus is reached." If there is a discussion to achieve consensus which involves people who are actually familiar with the town, then I'm confident as to what the outcome would be. Generally any discussion involving consensus on an article's talk page involves people who are familiar with the topic that the article is about. Vontheri (talk) 08:48, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

First of all, your guesswork about the outcome of a discussion we haven't had is not the same as having had that discussion. Secondly, you're reading too much into that one page; that "notable" means "has, or merits, a Wikipedia article" is a far more widely applied principle. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Also, if you'll notice, he is one of only five people who were on Survivor: All-Stars who do not have wikipedia articles of their own, despite the fact that he was one of the top five finalists. If all those other people are notable, then why isn't he? Vontheri (talk) 09:24, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Notable only for one event, as you've already been told. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

He was twice on Survivor for the regular series, and once for another one episode special, had a one-episode reality television program made about his family called "Family Beef", acted in a movie called "Miller's Ridge" (I'm not sure what that is, but it's listed on IMDB), and was a panelist on "Hollywood Squares." That's far more than many of the other survivor contestants who do have Wikipedia articles have done, for example Sue Hawk, Jerri Manthey, or Jenna Lewis. If they are notable enough for their own Wikipedia articles, then why isn't Tom Buchanan?

Magnolia677, Could you please respond to the questions I asked? Thank you. Vontheri (talk) 18:06, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

A consensus of editors have already decided that Tom Buchanan lacks the notability for a stand-alone Wikipedia article. If you think he deserves an article, and he has performed enough miracles since his article was deleted 10 years ago, then write one. But before you do, please read WP:E=N. As well, if you feel other biographies on Wikipedia about past stars of Survivor are less worthy than Big Tom of having a Wikipedia article, then nominate them for deletion. But before you do, please read other stuff exits. I hope this answers your questions. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:59, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I certainly don't feel that those other biography articles should be deleted, but they are definitely equal or lesser than Tom Buchanan in notability. I am familiar with "Other stuff exists", as well as "WP:E=N". Would you mind also answering my questions about the photograph? Vontheri (talk) 19:50, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

References