Talk:Sigurd

Otto Rank

In Otto Rank's The Myth of the Birth of the Hero, he tells the story more or less as follows: King Sigmund returns home from travel to learn of accusations of his wife's illicit relations with a menial. He orders her tongue to be cut out in the forest as punishment. In executing the order, she secretly births a child and places it in a glass vessel which falls into a river and travels downstream. It is found by a doe who nurses the young child, and subsequently found by a wise smith of the forest, Mimir who names him Siegfried and takes him as his own. But growing large and wilful, Mimir gets rid of him by conspiring with his brother, Regin, a dragon, to kill him. But Siegfried slays the dragon and then slays his unloyal father.

Now, I don't see anything even remotely resembling this in the Wikipedia article. Is Rank just plain mistaken, or what?

--1000Faces 22:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, the answer is found here, Regin: The Thidrekssaga relates a slightly different tale, with Regin as the dragon and Mimir as his brother and foster father to Sigurd.

Sigfried in Popular Culture

Sigfried is also a minor and mysterious character of Final Fantasy VI.

In 2012, Sigfried is mentioned in the movie "Django Unchained". The German bounty hunter Dr. Schultz, tells Django of a German legend in which Sigfried scales a mountain, walks through a ring of hell-fire and defeats a dragon to save his love, Brunhilda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.75.59.62 (talk) 21:45, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Sigurd is also a protagonist in the Fire Emblem series of video games. Cillian flood (talk) 11:39, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Corruption?

The introduction states:

The name Sigurðr is an Icelandic or Norwegian corruption of the German Siegfried as the correct Old Norse would have been Sigruþr (Sigröd), a form which appears in the Ramsund carving that depicts the legend

This sounds strange to me. AFAIK, the Norse stories of Sigurðr are attested much earlier than the German ones of Sigfried, so why not rather assume that Sigfried is the corruption? The only information I could find on the etymology of the name(s) is BehindTheName.com, where it says concerning Sigurd: "From the Old Norse name Sigurðr, which was derived from the elements sigr "victory" and vörðr "guardian"". Thus I don't see why Sigurðr should be taken as a corruption of Sigfried. --Pinnerup 22:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, Eric Brate, who is the source of this information was both a notable runologist and a translator of the Poetic Edda, so I think we should take the information seriously. By "corruption", Brate can not possibly mean that Sigurðr was "derived" from Sigfried, but he most probably means that that the corresponding Old Norse form of Sigfried was Sigröd and that a poet mistook Sigröd/Sigfried as Sigurd when the traditions reached Norway from Germany, Sweden or Denmark.--Berig 23:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I just noted this now. The Old Norse form of Siegfried is Sigfroðr, not Sigruðr or Sigroðr (with or without umlaut). I can see how one could be mistaken for the other, but is there any indication this is the case? Or that someone really made this error based on mistaking Sigurðr for Sigroðr, which in turn would be a mistake for Sigfroðr? Also, according to the Wikipedia article on the Ramsund carving, the name Sigroðr in the runes associated with the carving is the name of one of the family members for whom the carving was done, not the name of the epic hero, as this passage implies. Spiderboy12 (talk) 14:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I edited the page to reflect my comment above. Also, "Sivard" is the same name (or a variant form) of Sigurd, coming from Sigurðr or the ancient Germanic equivalent Sigiward.Spiderboy12 (talk) 17:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

They are different names, for the same person, sharing one similar root, but are in fact connected. For one, while "guard" is sound, it is not definitive. The "urd" also means "fate, destiny". Secondly, while "peace" is also sound for the second element in Siegfried, it is also likely not correct. Sigurd and Siegfried are connected as thus. Urd, Wurd, Verd, Ferd, Fried. It happens frequently in pan-Germanic concepts. Especially names. Just like the spelling variations in Reinhold, Raginballdr, Reginald, and Ronald. Another consideration is the connection to the historical king Siegbert, who was also married to Brunnhilde von Austrasia. Rosengarten Zu Worms (talk) 15:10, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Marvel Comics

FYI I don't know how to incorporate this into the article, but in Thor (Marvel Comics) a Marvel Comics wrote a short series based loosely on this and Siegmund in between issues #292-300. MPA 23:00, 16 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MPA (talk • contribs)

No Hermann?

Curious why there is no section about Hermann der Cherusker? As he is the real historical figure that inspired all these stories, is it not relevant?2601:806:4301:C100:3518:3979:F107:BC33 (talk) 01:36, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree. While it is controversial, there are many similarities in details to the historical Hermann. So many that there could easily be a section on them. The German article has a very extensive comparison. Rosengarten Zu Worms (talk) 15:12, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Improvements

I've started improving this article: I've added references and sections on etymology and origins, and I intend to add a section on the development of the traditions about Sigurd as best as we can reconstruct them. I've also reworked the lead somewhat. I'm of course interested in what everyone thinks and would be grateful for any help. In particular, I am not very familiar with the Norse sources or literature on them.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Also, if anyone can find anything on when Germans went back to saying "Siegfried" instead of "Seyfried/Seufried", I'd be eager to hear it.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: Thank you very much for your contributions. I have had this article on my watchlist for over a year now and it really needs to be rewritten with better sources to reflect a more erudite, scholarly understanding of the subject. Unfortunately, I am afraid I will not be of much help to you, because I know very little about the Old Norse sources either and this really is not my area of expertise. I do know a little bit, but I know far more about the history, religion, and literature of ancient Greece and the Near East than I do about Northern Europe. --Katolophyromai (talk) 00:02, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm guessing that you think these enormous plot summaries have to go. I may just delete them entirely and make sections on Sigurd in Scandinavia and Siegfried in Germany. There needs to be a section on reception as well.

I'm happy for whatever help you might be able to offer, don't sweat it. I wonder if I can somehow contact the people at the Wikiproject Norse mythology.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:13, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: I am actually fine with having plot summaries, but I think the summaries as they are now are not very good and need to be revised or rewritten. Also, they need to be cited to reliable sources and we need more information about historical context, development, and scholarly analysis of the legend. --Katolophyromai (talk) 15:12, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

@Katolophyromai: I'm not opposed to summaries per se, but as you say, they are not well written, are unsourced, and also summarize the entire plot of whatever works Sigurd/Siegfried appears in. That, however, is what the articles on those topics are for. My personal preference would be to just summarize the traditions represented in Germany and Scandinavia, of course with reference to where they appear, and then refer the interested reader to the articles on individual works for more information on them. I would intend to eventually do the same thing for the articles on Gudrun, Brynhildr (which should be moved to the common English names Brunhild or Brunhilda I think), Gunther, and Hagen (legend). The article Nibelung is also in quite a sorry state.

I'm working on a section on the historical development of the Sigurd legend as we speak.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

[Outdent] I've requested that Brynhildr be moved to Brunhild. Please stop by there if you have any thoughts.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:46, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I've just started rearranging the material. I intend to rewrite the sections on the Nibelungenlied and Thidrekssaga entirely still.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:41, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Ermenrich, I haven't read everything you've done in detail, but it is looking really good and it seems thorough. On the origins of the Sigurd myth, however, I thought I might draw your attention to one hypothesis: that the story of Sigurd/Siegfried as a dragon slayer started with his father Sigmund (as in Beowulf) and got transferred to his son, who may be a late addition to the legend. This comes from a reading of Christopher Tolkien's commentary in The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún, which includes references to his father's notes on the subject. Spiderboy12 (talk) 21:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Spiderboy12! I was planning to add that very fact soon, I've been sidetracked by creating summaries for the German poems. I just found a 2015 publication making that claim, so it's even something acceptable in recent scholarship.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the templates from the top of the page. I know there is more Norse (and even some more German) material that should be added, but I'm not sure when I'll get around to it. Any help is appreciated. My priority now is to rewrite the section on pictoral depictions and to add a bit about Siegfried and German nationalism to the section on reception. Also add a bit on the Sigurd/Sigmund theories. I'm also in favor of removing some of the kitschy images that are still cluttering the page, ideally I'd replace them with something else. Once I've done that I'll probably move on to Brunhild.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:50, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Beowulf might be easier if the Old English word 'eafora' could be analysed better. According to the lexica it can mean 'son, offspring, descendant'? If B.897 were translated as "Waels's descendant" (i.e. grandson), then it could be Sigemund's son, but in these contexts Klaeber is adamant that eafora can only mean son. Vince Calegon (talk) 08:08, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

If you have any reliable sources that could be cited on that subject, I'd certainly be happy to cite them!--Ermenrich (talk) 20:25, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Currently I'm assuming that it's more likely that the myth originally had Sigemund kill the dragon. Then later it became Sigemund's son. Vince Calegon (talk) 16:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Wagner

Is there any consensus that this article needs a section on Siegfried in Wagner, given how important Wagner has been for the public's perception of Siegfried? Not that I'm volunteering to write it.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:45, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Stubborn refharv problem

I ran a script to catch refharv problems, but there's one I can't seem to solve for some reason (Heinzle 1981-1987). Any more technologically gifted person than I who would like to take a go at it?--Ermenrich (talk) 18:14, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Reception outside Germany

Does anyone know any good sources for the reception of Sigurd outside Germany? Obviously he's most important there, but we nevertheless have Tolkien and William Morris, among others, writing about him in the English speaking world.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:38, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

A good source is actually included in the list of references, The Nibelungen Tradition: An Encyclopedia (specifically, Part VII, "The Literary Reception of the Nibelungen in Non-Germans Speaking Countries"). Also, Parts VIII and IX, which deal with musical and artistic reception, respectively. I have an electronic version on my Kindle, which may make any specific page references difficult, though hardly impossible. The book is a bit dated, having been published several years ago.

For prose literary reception specifically in English-speaking countries, the novels by American writers Stephan Grundy and Diana Paxson are mentioned in this book, and British novelist Melvin Burgess has written a post-apocalyptic SF duology not noted there as they came along later. Here's a reference to that work: Larrington, Carolyne. (2011). Melvin Burgess's Bloodtide and Bloodsong. Sigmundr, Sigurðr and Young Adult Literature.- In: Eddische Götter und Helden. Milieus und Medien ihrer Rezeption p. 199-214. Spiderboy12 (talk) 16:11, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll try to get around to doing something on this.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

One more reference: Chapter 20 in David Blamires' Telling Tales: The Impact of Germany on English Children's Books 1750-1918, entitled specifically "Siegfried and the Nibelungenlied." It describes James Baldwin's story, "The Story of Siegfried", which is included in the article already, but also a number of other works regarding stories and books aimed specifically at kids. Here's a direct link to Chapter 20: https://books.openedition.org/obp/619?lang=en Spiderboy12 (talk) 05:52, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I've been assembling these and some other sources. I need to finish up some work over at Gunther and then Nibelung, where I'll probably just add what is absolutely necessary, then I'll try to add some more here. It might take me a while though.

Once I've added a bit on anglophone reception, I think I'd like to see if this can be made into a good article, so if you have any further suggestions for improvements beyond typos and style, please let me know! This and Brunhild are probably the two most viewed articles about Germanic heroic legends, so they ought to be in tip-top shape!--Ermenrich (talk) 15:46, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Typo?

Is this a typo or in Sivard Snarensvend is the horse called Gram, not Grani? Section [| In Denmark and Sweden]

I believe that is correct - it's just another form of the horse's name.--Ermenrich (talk) 12:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Article Name

Under wiki rules, this article should be name "Siegfried", not Sigurd. A google result shows 300% more listings for Siegfried. Also, who knows who "Sigird" is?Rosengarten Zu Worms (talk) 13:31, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Sigurd is the name in the Old Norse sources. You need to discuss this before simply moving a page of this priority. Many people read the Edda and Germans writers have also used the form Sigurd. You need to provide actual evidence, and WP:GOOGLE is not a reason for a move.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:07, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

German sources are older and more widespread and more common. And yes, wikilaw states that the common name must be used. A quick google search and count will settle that matter. 79.106.203.29 (talk) 16:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:PROVEIT. I can find lots of German sources that discuss Sigurd with that name because they're discussing the Old Norse material (which, contrary to your statement, is not somehow newer or less common). Also you can't just do a search for "Sigurd" or "Siegfried", there are lots of completely unrelated individuals who have those names.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Bad wording

The article states:

"The redaction of the text known as the Nibelungenlied C makes several small changes to localizations in the text:"

This is highly disputed. Since the is the oldest known text, it is safe to say that the other 2 made the changes, not this text. It should be worded more neutral. 79.106.203.29 (talk) 16:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:PROVEIT.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)