Talk:Survey of Palestine

Name

To editor Onceinawhile: I was a bit surprised by your choice of name, since I have never seen anything except "Survey of Palestine" as author on a map produced by this organization. That includes the maps you have included in the article plus all the 1:20K maps, 1:50K maps, 1:100K maps and many town plans. Note that Gavish's book (preface) says "The government’s Department of Surveys—the Survey of Palestine–was the chief professional component of the system." indicating that Gavish considers Survey of Palestine to be the name and Department of Surveys to be a description. And on p23 "led the government to establish the Survey of Palestine as a fully fledged department." Similarly p45, "the first Director (Surveyor—General) of the Survey of Palestine" and so on. And the list of directors on p48. In the Gazette I see "Survey Department", "Surveys Department", "Department of Surveys" and "Survey of Palestine" -- no name stands out as the official name. I propose that we use what is by a very large margin the best known name, which is Survey of Palestine. Zero^talk 11:08, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: I admit I struggled with that question. I went for British Colonial precedents on Wikipedia (Survey Department of Sri Lanka) as SoP overlaps with our existing Survey of Palestine (which probably needs a better title as well). I am happy to defer to your authority here - please feel free to change as you suggest. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:16, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I will. It is like Survey of London, Survey of Egypt (an important institution that deserves an article), Survey of India and indeed Survey of Israel. Zero^talk 13:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Incidentally, this looks interesting but I don't seem to have access. If you can get it, please send me a copy. Also, the lower few of the 1:100K maps you have displayed were based on SofP maps but with many of the names changed to Hebrew alternatives. I don't think I found the English maps they are based on; can you find them? Zero^talk 13:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Now in your email. On the 1:100k maps, from memory Gavish explains that the first 16 maps were created before 1948 and the rest were created after. So the lower set of maps may not have had an English original. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

In the right margin, there is reference to 1940s maps. War Office rather than SofP maps though. Except for the map directly below Beersheba, the South Levant maps only extended slightly into Palestine from Jordan. I have a few and there is an index here. Zero^talk 14:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

A problem with moving is that Survey of Palestine already exists as an article about the 1945-6 document. What to do? Should we change that one to "A Survey of Palestine" or "Survey of Palestine (1945–1946)" or something? Zero^talk 13:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I have just moved it to Survey of Palestine (Anglo-American Committee). Onceinawhile (talk) 13:59, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: I have just created Survey of Palestine (disambiguation). To fix the titles per above will require your admin powers. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I think I did it. The system is broken, as when an article is deleted to make a move the corresponding talk page is not moved. If you see a problem, let me know and I'll try to fix it. Zero^talk 07:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

DYK

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 11:31, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

)

The 1930 survey of the Jaffa Municipality (red), showing townships of Jaffa (green) and Tel Aviv (blue)

• ... that the Survey of Palestine only carried out an ownership survey of the land which became Israel, but not the land which became the West Bank? Sources: Essaid 2013, p. 99: “... during the Mandate the land and villages of Palestine that currently make up the territory of the West Bank did not undergo a cadastral survey until after 1948.”

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mina'i ware

Created by Onceinawhile (talk). Self-nominated at 17:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC).

• Comment Hook is not interesting. It is often that parts of a region are mapped, but not others. buidhe 09:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Buidhe, thank you – I had to think about this, and have concluded that you are right. It reads like "the countries split apart and only one was surveyed", which is dull. What it was trying to say is that "when immigrants came and settled the land the colonial authorities only bothered to carry out a detailed survey of the area that the immigrants were interested in, ignoring everyone else." Onceinawhile (talk) 13:09, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Nice little article, informative, hook seems fine to me. Selfstudier (talk) 14:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Some alternative hooks for consideration below:

• ALT1 ... that the Survey of Palestine has been used widely in "refugee cartography"?
• ALT2 ... that the Survey of Palestine was the only government department in Mandatory Palestine not headquartered in Jerusalem?
• ALT3 ... that the Survey of Palestine surveyed Israel but not Palestine?

Onceinawhile (talk) 08:30, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

ALT2 is the most interesting and accessible, with ALT1 relying on a very specific term with no wikilink or much explanation in the article, while ALT3 is misleading given the information in the article.

The article itself needs some tweaks before it goes onto the main page. The first sentence defines the topic as "the official survey and mapping of Palestine", while it should probably say something like "the official survey and mapping department of Palestine". This is especially important as the title might be interpreted as a single survey. (As ALT2 specifies "government department", it is already clear in this respect.)

The sentence beginning with "The Zionist Organization were to use..." is phrased oddly, and I don't read it as properly reflecting the quote in the source. The 1937 sentence and quote is out of order chronologically, which might make sense in another section but doesn't really work in History.

Consider also pulling information out of the lead and into the article body per WP:LEAD, as the lead currently does not summarise the article, although this goes beyond DYK requirements. CMD (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Chipmunkdavis, many thanks. I have amended the sentences you have highlighted, and have moved the 1937 sentence as suggested. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I have struck the other ALTs. Regarding the ALT 2 hook, I feel like it is missing a word between "not" and "in Jerusalem", something like based/headquartered/located. The relevant sentence in the article is cited to page 101, but includes a quote from page 100. I also read the source as not supporting the implied unidirectional relationship between the location itself and zionist motives as strongly as the article does. Page 100 discusses the initial location as being determined by settler interest, but Page 101 implies that as time moved on there was a combination of factors that kept it in place, and that the location in turn played a role determining areas of settlement: "since the Survey Department's Office was in Jaffa, the lands that were surveyed and settled were those lands nearest to Jaffa". "center of the Jewish settlement in Palestine" thus reads as slightly misleading and anachronistic. CMD (talk) 02:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Chipmunkdavis, many thanks. I believe I have now addressed these comments. Best regards, Onceinawhile (talk) 20:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

ALT2 and the article meet DYK requirements. CMD (talk) 08:23, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Alternative display of 1:20,000 maps – Last Available

The table below, rather than showing the earliest available, shows the last set of Survey of Palestine maps. I think having both sets in the article is too much. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:57, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21
29
28
27
26
25
24
23
22
21
20
19
18
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
7

Relation to Survey of Israel in 1948

The statement "After 1948 it became the Survey of Israel." was removed by this edit. I propose that the statement be returned with a reference including a source like the following:

HOROVITZ, Hilik. "The Survey of Israel Heritage Website" (PDF). FIG Working Week 2009.

Or, another suitable source that describes the transition.

@Onceinawhile and Danny lost: Comments? I don't know the subject well enough myself to make the change. Thanks. - DutchTreat (talk) 12:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi @DutchTreat: thanks for raising this. Perhaps we change it to "In early 1948, the British Mandate appointed a temporary Director General of the Survey Department of the Jewish State in Israel, which became the Survey of Israel. The source is below.

Early 1948: Moshe Yohnovetski was appointed by the British Mandate as temporary Director General of the Survey Department of the Jewish State in Israel (exact date is unknown). The appointment is assumed to have been made between February and April 1948.[1]

Regards, Onceinawhile (talk) 15:57, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

{ping|Onceinawhile}} I like your wording. This accurately reflects the transition. - DutchTreat (talk) 16:27, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I find it hard to imagine the Mandate authorities giving out a title including the words "Jewish State in Israel" when there wasn't one (or an Israel).Selfstudier (talk) 17:33, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I suggest referring to MY as a temporary director as the first source above does. Selfstudier (talk) 18:12, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Survey of Palestine 1942-1958 1-100,000 sheet index georef.png, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for December 31, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-12-31. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.2% of all FPs. Currently celebrating his 600^th FP!} 04:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The Survey of Palestine was the government department responsible for the survey and mapping of Palestine during the period of British Mandatory Palestine. The survey department was established in 1920 in Jaffa, and moved to the outskirts of Tel Aviv in 1931. It established the Palestine grid. In early 1948, the British mandate appointed a temporary director general of the Survey Department for the impending Jewish state; this became the Survey of Israel. The maps produced by the survey have been widely used in "Palestinian refugee cartography" by scholars documenting the 1948 Palestinian exodus, notably in Salman Abu Sitta's Atlas of Palestine and Walid Khalidi's All That Remains. This composite map of the region of Palestine was assembled from twenty-four separate 1:100,000 sheets published by the Survey for Palestine and its successor, the Survey of Israel, between 1942 and 1958.

Map credit: Survey of Palestine and the Survey of Israel; assembled by DutchTreat

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