Talk:The Empire Strikes Back/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Alec Guinness Return

There's a portion of the Casting section which could use some work:

"Alec Guinness could not return as Obi-Wan because his failing eyesight required him to avoid bright lights.^[56] Recasting him was considered but, determined to recruit him, Lucas agreed to a deal in late August 1979, just before filming finished. Guinness was paid 0.25% of Empire's box office gross for his few hours of work.^[94]"

It's a strange segment, because first we are told that Guinness cannot return period, but then a deal is struck that allows to return in a small way. We know from the film that he returns as a force ghost, but it appears that Lucas wanted him to return in a bigger way. It would be nice to have that information: how did Lucas originally envision Guinness's participation in the film? Also, the segment sort of implies that Guinness made the decision to return because Lucas paid him enough, but it's not 100% clear if that's the case. I don't have access to the Rinzler text, so I can't do additional research to see if there is more information about this. Maybe someone who has access to the book can do it? Wafflewombat (talk) 08:23, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Page 34: "During the making of Star Wars, George and Gary asked me if I would reappear in a sequel," says Alec Guinness. "I told them, 'Yes, absolutely.' I was quite emphatic about it-but I've developed wretched eye trouble. It's threatening to blind my left eye. Specialists told me that under no circumstances must I go into bright light. So I've sort of withdrawn, feeling I had no option."

Page 210: One item still not resolved per the bog planet was whether it would feature the ghost of Obi-Wan or not. "It's up in the air at this particular point in time," Lucas says. "We're not quite sure what Alec's situation is in terms of his health, but we're hoping that he'll do the picture. We could find somebody who could do his voice with makeup. Ben Kenobi can still be there without Alec Guinness, it's just that we prefer the real thing."

PAge 236: On Friday, August 24, Sir Alec Guinness confirmed that he would reprise his role as Ben Kenobi... "I spent last evening with him," says Lucas. "He told me that his doctors say he is getting better every day." "I really need him for just some shots against bluescreen, not on any set," Kershner says... New script pages were issued that shortened his role; some lines were cut and some="Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor"-were given to Yoda...Lucas left that Sunday, having secured Guinness's participation..."

Page 241: his contract, for one quarter of 1 percent of Empire's gross receipts, is dated September 10...During the rehearsal, Guinness raised a hand to shade his eyes from the harshlight...his important contribution to the film had taken mere hours. Darkwarriorblake (talk)

This is great, thanks for all the info. I created a new version of that segment. It's longer, but I feel it makes more sense. I'll post it here for you to review:

Alec Guinness had told Lucas he "absolutely" wanted to return as Obi-Wan, but he had developed a health condition (in his words, "wretched eye trouble"), which required him to avoid bright lights. Hoping to avoid recasting him, Lucas met with him in late August 1979, just before filming finished. The two agreed to a deal in which Guinness would only be filmed against a bluescreen, and would have fewer lines than originally planned. Guinness was paid 0.25% of Empire's box office gross for his work, which took "mere hours". Wafflewombat (talk) 01:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Segment is now more clear.

Resolved

Helicopter flight

Darkwarriorblake (or anyone with the Rinzler text), can you please confirm that the helicopter used in Finse flew to 49,000 feet? Google tells me that helicopters normally don't fly above 25,000 feet, but in some cases can go higher. 40,000 feet is the height airliners travel at, so I'll be surprised if the crew's helicopter went that high. The citation provided about the helicopter is Rinzler 2010, p. 141.

Thanks! Wafflewombat (talk) 05:05, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I found a digital copy of the Rinzler text, and discovered that the helicopter flew to 15,000 feet. Typo has been corrected. Wafflewombat (talk) 10:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

Plot timeline

The article's lead says that Empire takes place three years after the events of Star Wars. How do we know this? It's not in the opening crawl. @Darkwarriorblake, maybe you can answer this question?

Similarly, the page for Return of the Jedi says the plot occurs one year after Empire, but this also is absent from that film's opening crawl. Wafflewombat (talk) 03:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

It's one of the most commonly known things about the movies. While not directly in the movies, it's all over most official publications and it's always been consistent. For the longest time Star Wars official novels had the timeline and years printed at the beginning of the books. Starwars.com used to have a timeline but it doesn't seem to be there now, but it still heavily references BBY and ABY years throughout its databanks. And here is a reliable source that shows what's been published all over the place in print. Canterbury Tail talk 12:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't honestly know if it's in the film I just used what was already here and I'm probably not gonna watch the whole film to find out, but if necessary it can be easily sourced using Canterbury's link above as it is at Starship Troopers. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 12:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Another question: Is it necessary to use citations in a Cast section? I noticed it has been done on the Empire page. My understanding is that films are their own primary sources, so I'm wondering why citations would be needed for information that is in the film (including the credits). Wafflewombat (talk) 12:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

For a straight cast to character no, but for descriptions of who their character is the answer would be, sometimes. Canterbury Tail talk 12:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Film's can be used as the source for plot, in a featured article the cast should be referenced and certainly if you're using descriptions of the characters these should also be sourced. It isn't a general requirement but for Featured Articles it is. You also run into issues, as with this article, where sourcing is very important as with who portrayed the Emperor, because there are reliable sources for it here, but it was repeatedly changed to someone else based on a tweet. The article for that incorrect person still says they portrayed the character but so far no evidence has been found to say that Rinzler's book was incorrect beyond that tweet, per Talk:The_Empire_Strikes_Back/Archive_3#Palpatine_/_the_Emperor. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 12:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

EDIT: Her article's actually been updated since I last looked to be less definitive. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 12:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Premiere(s)

A segment that seems (to me) a little unclear. I added bold emphasis to the terms that may need clarifying or changing:

"The Empire Strikes Back debuted at the Dominion Theatre, London, on May 6, 1980, followed by a premiere on May 17 at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. This event, which featured the principal cast, was attended by 600 children, including Special Olympians. The film's world premiere took place on May 20 at the Odeon Leicester Square, London. Dubbed "Empire Day", the event included actors in Stormtrooper attire interacting with people across the city."

Rinzler describes the Dominion screening as a "sneak preview," not a "debut." To me, "debut" sounds like it was an official premiere. The Wiki page for premiere defines it as "the debut (first public presentation) of a work." Rinzler describes the Kennedy Center screening alternately as a "preview" and "premiere." Rinzler calls the Odeon screening the "world premiere," and the Getty Images source calls it both a "premiere" and a "royal premiere." Interestingly, the Washington Post source calls the Kennedy Center screening the "world premiere."

If I'm not alone in thinking the terms could be tweaked a bit for clarification, please let me know, and I'll draft a new version of the segment. Wafflewombat (talk) 04:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I've drafted a new version:

"A sneak preview of The Empire Strikes Back took place on May 6, 1980 at the Dominion Theatre in London, followed by another preview screening on May 17 at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. This event, which featured the principal cast, was attended by 600 children, including Special Olympians. The film's world premiere took place on May 20 at the Odeon Leicester Square in London. Dubbed "Empire Day", the event included actors in Stormtrooper attire interacting with people across the city."

Here is the Rinzler segment I consulted for the clarifications: "Following a sneak preview at the Dominion Theater on May 6, the world premiere of Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back took place at the Odeon in London on May 20, the US preview having taken place three days earlier." (Chapter 11)

Would anyone oppose me implementing these changes?
Wafflewombat (talk) 07:32, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Changes implemented.

Resolved