Talk:Toyah Battersby

Middle name

Since the character has never been credited as Toyah Laverne Battersby, I feel it shouldn't be added to the infobox per the template documentation, the template talk page discussion, MOS:TV, and yes WP:FANCRUFT. However, I thought of a compromise to keep the name in the article. Since the source says viewers found it amusing, what about adding the info to the reception section instead? - JuneGloom07 Talk 23:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Well i think since if a reliable source mentions the name, it should be added as an alias. If she’s known as it, it should be added down. WikiFlame50 (talk) 06:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

If a middle name is added and if it is backed up by a source or even seen in an episode (for example, Abi and Kevin’s wedding "Kevin John Webster”) then it should be added in the infobox as an alias. WikiFlame50 (talk) 06:45, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I think @JuneGloom07: has the right idea. If you would really like to have a reference to the fact that she is alternatively known as Toyah Laverne Battersby, and you have a source (which you do), go ahead, adding to the reception will improve the article a lot. To be honest though, I wouldn’t worry about the whole ‘other names’ box if I were you, I understand you may take it seriously, but I personally only add the other names they are credited as. (Eg when she got married I put Toyah Habeeb, but that’s not her common name hence why it went in other names.) I look forward to hearing others opinions on this Blanchey (talk) 07:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Fictional characters can have middle names. Otherwise why would they say them? WikiFlame50 (talk) 07:54, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Middle names are more things that are on screen simply to add realism to the show. When it comes to credits, they only use the characters fore and surnames. On fandom, they allow the use of full names including middle names although fandom articles are more about the character and what happens in the show. Wikipedia articles are built on reliable sources and what’s in the publics interest. So if you have a reliable source (which you have) then of course, add something but I’m sure that the manual of style only requires that you add credited names Blanchey (talk) 08:03, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I still think that rule should be changed. It’s an alias. And all aliases should be included fandom or not, or credited or not. Any info should be included WikiFlame50 (talk) 09:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Like I said, if the source is reliable backing it up, like Mike Baldwins name with the producers even referring him to “Michael Vernon Baldwin” on Johnnys remembrance programme etc, then there’s no significant harm in including it as long as it’s backed up WikiFlame50 (talk) 09:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

After all Dark was on my side with Mikes name. He thought it should stay since the source was very reliable. WikiFlame50 (talk) 09:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I don’t know if you are able to suggest a change, maybe talk to someone like DarkGlow or JuneGloom. In terms of this article though, if you want to re add Toyah Laverne, go ahead, I think it’s safe. You’ll probably have to request an edit from an admin. Blanchey (talk) 10:07, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

It’s still there. So maybe it’ll stay WikiFlame50 (talk) 13:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that’s sorted then. All we have to do now is wait for the page to be unprotected. I’m sure an admin will get onto it soon Blanchey (talk) 14:36, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Blanchey: It's not sorted. - JuneGloom07 Talk 15:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I’m pretty sure they would have removed it immediately. I changed the title so it doesn’t look like a fan page. WikiFlame50 (talk) 14:55, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

The middle name should definitely not be in the infobox as it is clutter and WP:FANCRUFT. I think JuneGloom07 has come up with a reasonable compromise by adding it to the reception section. WikiFlame50, nobody is saying these characters can't have middle names but it is all just "fun fact" type information, like if Toyah perhaps had a pet fish as a child. It's not particularly relevant. I also don't believe it should have been included on Mike Baldwin's article either. Soaper1234 - talk 14:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

The producers for Johnny brigg’s memorial referred to him as that. WikiFlame50 (talk) 15:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

And it was reliable too WikiFlame50 (talk) 15:05, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Since the discussion on Mike's article, my opinion has changed and I too believe it is fancruft for his and Toyah's articles. If a reliable article stated 10 of Toyah's former addresses or occupations, we would not list them all because it's trivial and unneeded information. If fans have reacted to the name, it can go in reception. – DarkGlow • 15:12, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

What if you just change the name of the article? WikiFlame50 (talk) 15:27, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@WikiFlame50: Going through your points one by one.

1. She's not known by it. It's not her WP:COMMONAME.

2. Why? Middle names are only unusually mentioned at occasions like weddings, after a writer has come up with it for that episode. It may never get mentioned again

3. No one is saying characters can't have middle names.

4. Middle names are not aliases. An alias is a false or assumed identity. It's just 'another' name. Not all info should be included because Wikipedia is not a fansite. A middle name is the type of info perfect for a Wikia or trivia section.

5. Not everything backed up by a source belongs in an article, or when it contradicts other policies like MOS:TVCAST: All names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source. That's common name with a source, or credited name. Toyah's middle name falls into neither category.

6. WP:OTHERSTUFF.

Now, I thought I'd come up with a good compromise, but you seem to have completely ignored that. - JuneGloom07 Talk 15:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

It’s not just weddings you know. There are other scenarios. WikiFlame50 (talk) 15:40, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Sometimes there’s stuff like birth certificates, paperwork etc. it ain’t all weddings. And I haven’t ignored anything. This is not called a discussion for no reason. WikiFlame50 (talk) 15:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Personally IMO I think those rules should be altered for middle names to be accepted as a form of character name as long as there’s something backing it up. WikiFlame50 (talk) 15:42, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Well it is quite literally in your opinion, and only yours. You've had 4 editors against your one point yet believe that the rule should be changed in your favour? This is coming to a crystal clear consensus and if you don't like that, then that sounds like a you problem since you've raised no valid points, imo. – DarkGlow • 16:17, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I never said in my favour. All I’m saying is that middle names should count. It’s highly bizarre that it isn’t. WikiFlame50 (talk) 16:44, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

In this case then, perhaps we should have Toyah Laverne removed, because JuneGloom is very much correct, Wikipedia isn’t a fan site. I understand that this may not have been what you wanted, however it does on fandom say that Toyah’s middle name is Laverne, since that actually is a fan website. It’s not really the same as Wikipedia. On Wikipedia we should really only have vital information that is in the interest of the general public. In my opinion, other names should only be used for other credited names as this is potentially in the interest of the public. I did say that if you wanted to add another name with a reliable source you could, but seeing as so many other people are against this, I think it’s gonna have to go. Blanchey (talk) 17:59, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I still think it’s just plain dumb that it’s not in the rules. WikiFlame50 (talk) 18:19, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

If that’s how you feel, maybe there is a place you can propose a change to the manual of style. However, it is highly unlikely that it will change. I don’t even know if you are able to do that, or who decides the rules, we just have to follow them when editing. Perhaps there is something you could say on the talk page? Blanchey (talk) 18:24, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I really doubt it would ever gain consensus to be added to the MoS. A lot of in-universe info has been removed from the iboxes recently, and this would probably fall under that. - JuneGloom07 Talk 22:07, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@WikiFlame50: Okay, you haven't ignored my suggestion, but you haven't actually addressed it either. As consensus and guidelines appear to be against the inclusion of the character's middle name in the ibox, it's likely the info won't be kept in the article at all. I thought it was a good compromise, but 🤷🏻‍♀️ - JuneGloom07 Talk 22:07, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I always check the sites before I add anyways. WikiFlame50 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@JuneGloom07: thank you for your response. To me it seems that when the article is unprotected, Toyah Laverne Battersby will be removed, and I personally agree since it probably wouldn’t be of much interest to most readers. Do you know when this article will probably be unprotected? Blanchey (talk) 07:16, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Fine, it can go. I don’t really care anymore. Nobody’s on my side and I’ll accept it. Points where more valid than mine. I just don’t want anymore drama at all. WikiFlame50 (talk) 09:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Alright. I’ve removed the stuff on Mike Baldwin. WikiFlame50 (talk) 09:59, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, and just to clarify, I'm not taking sides. I am just trying to 'stay cool' and come to a decision which benefits all of us and the readers at home. Blanchey (talk) 10:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I know dude. Never said you where not. I’m just trying to fully redeem myself. WikiFlame50 (talk) 10:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)