Talk:Type 1 47 mm anti-tank gun

I think American tankers on Okinawa might differ with the article in regard to the notion of its "diminishing effectiveness". It wasn't a great gun by any means, but it did remain quite dangerous to the end of the war. One could also wonder about the cause of such a diminishing. After all, it's not as if the United States kept introducing newer and better tank designs into service, especially in the Pacific.--172.190.48.224 (talk) 06:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Type 97 47 mm Anti-Tank Gun

Could anyone provide some sources on this subject please? Googling this (Japanese) designation only nets me a handful of sites of unclear reliability, which provide some more details on this gun, but don't bother with listing any sources either. The recognized historians on this subject, like Zaloga (in his newest 'Sherman vs. Chi-Ha' book) or Takizawa, definitively state that the development of a new 47mm gun was started as a result of Khalkhin Gol fighting in 1939, so all this appears pretty confusing. --Saə (talk) 09:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Hara says in AFV Profile 49 Japanese Medium Tanks that it was at Nomohan that the Japanese realised they needed a better gun and that as a result they tested an improved 57mm against an new 47mm (Type 97) and went with 47mm because it could use the same ammo as the anti-tank gun in use already. GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Fitzsimons mentions a 37mm Type 97 & the 47mm Type 1, but no 47mm Type 97. He says the 47mm was begun in response to 1938-9 actions & suggests it's based on a captured Sov 45mm ZIK. He also mentions a 47mm tank gun, which presumably was the Type 97, already under development, but offers no specifics. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 20:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

What book is this in? At the very least, it could be an indication that the development of a 47mm antitank gun before Khalkhin Gol is not just an Internet hoax. --Saə (talk) 05:16, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Now I read Hara again, it could be that what he refers to as "Type 97" is the improved 57mm of 420m/s (which is tested against the Type 90 57mm). He also covers the naming of weapons. The prototype would take its name from the year and then when adopted for service take the year it was standardized - so that throws another element into the mix. The Profile is quite terse - it covers all Japanese Medium tanks in only 26 pages (including covers) and the grammar/idiom is a little "un-English".GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Hara indeed only talks about tank guns in that book, and it is a 57mm Type 97. Which is a bit mysterious too: it has a bigger muzzle velocity than Type 90's 350m/s, but also the same barrel length and supposedly uses the exact same rounds (according to TM9-1985-5 — Japanese Explosive Ordnance) — so where that comes from? --Saə (talk) 05:16, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Of the 57mm, the paragraph says "enlargement of propellent chamber for attaining more velocity". An experiment that was not taken further? GraemeLeggett (talk) 06:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

♠"What book is this in? " It's a (not entirely reliable) 24v set I've got on 20th Century Weapons & Warfare, V15 in this case; consulting editors include Ian Hogg, so small errors but probably not huge ones. The brief bit on SP guns doesn't mention the 47. Where was the 47mm tank gun used? I can have a look if the tank article mentions more detail.

♠I'm also finding myself wondering if there's possible confusion between the gun's type number & the tank's. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 15:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

This might help:

War Department Special Series No. 19 ''Japanese Infantry Weapons'' December 1943

Section VIII. ANTITANK AND INFANTRY GUNS-Continued.

Page 36.

MODEL 1 (1941) 47-MM GUN 206
a. General               206
b. How to Identify       206
c. Characteristics       208
d. How to Operate        209
e. Ammunition            209

Page 206
MODEL 1 (1941) 47-MM GUN

a. General

The Model 1 (1941) 47-mm gun (figs. 133 and 134) is a new gun of modern design. It is an anti-tank and anti-personnel weapon.

b. How to Identify The Model 1 (1941) 47-mm gun may be identified by
(1) The long barrel, reinforced at the muzzle.
(2) The exceptionally long trails.
(3) The rubber tires.
(4) The marking which is above the breech. This marking, which is read "Ichi ShikiKido Yonjunana Miri Ho" from right to left, means "model mobile 47-mm gun."

c. Characteristics

The Model 1 (1941) 47-mm gun has a long barrel with a jacket and a hoop, and is heavily reinforced at the muzzle.
The breechlock is a horizontal sliding wedge, hand or semiautomatic in operation (fig. 135).

The gun is transported with the trails closed, locked with a yoke. This gun is adapted for motor transport only.
Its great length and low clearance make it difficult to manhandle except on exceptionally favorable terrain.
A wide shield, cut away at the bottom, is provided. Perforated steel disk wheels are fitted with rubber tires.
The tread is wide, but ground clearance is low. The low silhouette, wide tread, and long trails should give this gun excellent stability.
Preliminary tests indicate a muzzle velocity of 2,700 feet per second.

d. How to Operate

All of the details on the operation of this gun are not known.
It is believed, however, that it may be operated in the same manner as the Model 94 (1934)37-mm gun (par. 35, p. 194).

e. Ammunition

The rimmed armor-piercing-high-explosive round has a brass case. It is of comparatively large diameter, necked down to take the 47-mm projectile.
The projectile has a red tip, a black body, and a white band just in front of the copper rotating band.

Specifications for the round are as follows:

Length of complete round  15.54 inches.
Weight of complete round  6 pounds 6.4 ounces.
Maximum diameter of case  2.55 inches.
Length of case            11.09 inches
Length of projectile      4.45 inches.
Weight of projectile      3 pounds 6.4 ounces.
Weight of propellant      13.94 ounces.

A simple high-explosive round is also reported to be available for use in this weapon.

Buster40004 Talk 03:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Combat Record Section

The combat record section is full of erroneous data. The excerpt about being able to penetrate the M4A6, originally states that the gun was able to penetrate all parts of the tank, EXCEPT the glacis plate. Likewise, no data on the Type 4 solid shot AP penetration survived the war. Shinhoto (talk) 05:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)