Talk:Whiteleaf, Buckinghamshire

'plain daft' is a bit strong. I thought we were meant to be courteous.

If you do not like the re-direction I do not see why you had to delete all the new text - or perhaps you think the old text is correct. I would myself categorise that as 'plain daft' (though I would not normally have said so). There was never a medieval monastery at Monks Risborough and I do not know any reputable or authoritative work which suggests that there was.

Also the name does not come from the cross but from the chalk cliff, which was almost certainly a natural formation and far older than the cross.

Also, strictly, the cross is not in Whiteleaf but above it, merely named after it.

Wikipedia Geography says if there is no more than a couple of paras that could be said about hamlets it may be best practice to merge their articles with that for the parish.

I do not mind there being short articles for the individual hamlets, but I am quite unrepentant in saying that everything in Monks Risborough is best described there, so that any one wanting to know about MR can read it all there in one article without whizzing about elsewhere. The hamlet entries can describe the hamlets themselves but anything beyond that is best in the main article, which includes all the hamlets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Waysider1925 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Rewording of article

(NB moved from top of page as per convention to label new discussions and add new text below existing posts)

Hello. Posting here because I do not want to start an edit war, just hoping to create some harmony between this article and Monks Risborough which currently contradict. This page suggests that there was a monastery in Monks Risborough and that the Whiteleaf cross is neolithic in origin. I do not believe these are verifiable. Monks Risborough states that the origin of the cross is unknown (there are no mentions of the cross before 1700) and suggests that the "Monks" of Monks Risborough refers to the monks of Christ Church Priory, Canterbury not to a local monastery. References are cited to allow these facts to be verified. I also believe that it is important to mention Whiteleaf in the context of the ecclesiastical parish and ancient estate. I therefore suggest the following edit. Thoughts?:

Whiteleaf is a hamlet in the ecclesiastical parish (and also the ancient estate and manor) of Monks Risborough in Buckinghamshire, England, although it is now in the civil parish of Princes Risborough. To the east of the village is Whiteleaf Cross, a large cross with a triangular base cut into the chalk on the side of Whiteleaf Hill, making an important landmark for miles around. The date and origin of this cross are unknown. It was mentioned as an antiquity by Francis Wise in 1742, but no earlier reference has been found. The cross is not mentioned in any description of the area before 1700. Many of the houses refer to the Cross in their names - sometimes using the old word Rood. In additon to the cross, Whiteleaf Hill has a barrow thought to date from the Neolithic period.

The village is home to Monks Risborough Cricket Club and the 9-hole Whiteleaf Golf Club, both of which lie slightly South-East of the main road through the village, which follows the path of the Upper Icknield Way. The cricket ground has an incredible slope and was tried by the BBC to see if it would be suitable for filming the cricket scene in the production of A. G. Macdonnell's England, Their England. However, it was found to be not quite sufficiently sloping. The cricket club celebrated its centenary in 1993 and a book covering its history was published.

The village also has a public house, the Red Lion.

Finereach (talk) 18:19, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Finereach, Could you explain further the importance of mentioning reference to the ecclesiastical parish and ancient estate for Whiteleaf. Elsewhere in 99% of articles about the smaller village settlements the primary parish reference is that of the civil parish. This consensus is based on how the Manual of Style for the lead section for such articles is set out. This is important so as to maintain a standard approach in WP although not an absolute one. There will be particular exceptions to this where the ecclesiastic parish has some contemporary notoriety. However, in this article it creates a cumbersome and unhelpful start to the article. I seem to have had this same discussion with Waysider a while back and hope you will not mind me asking as you seem to hold a similar view as that editor in proposing this change if you can explain why this particular ecclesiastical parish has an importance unlike others nearby. I for one are open minded to logical argument and this might help in moving things forward. I could see some possible relevance to Whiteleaf Cross given the different theories over the latter's disputed origin pagan etc vs post 17th century religious. However, this would be an historic connection between Whiteleaf and the Ecclesiastical parish not one that should be given such weight in a contemporary context and reflected in the lead. As to the history of the Cross I hold no view either way on the merits of different theories although having doessome research on the other chalk figures of the Chilterns its worth noting there are other publications (not cited here) which do put forward other theories to that referenced under Pevsner et al. As theories rather than facts they could be included here. NB I see you have also added the Ecclesiastical reference back into Monks Risborough which however I will address over there. Tmol42 (talk) 21:33, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Tmol42, thanks for your swift reply. I am not paticularly bothered about menioning the ecclesiastical parish, nor the history of the cross before 1700, and bow to your greater knowledge on the style guide. The main reason for suggesting an edit was the following section:

The cross dates back to the time of the medieval monastery in Risborough,

My concern is that the existence of the Monks is not verifiable, although I agree that people think there was a monastery in Risborough I am not aware of the evidence for this, and indeed I am aware of evidence for an alternative explanation. If we remove this part of the sentence, the second half of the sentence needs some work since it refers back to the Monks.

How about this?

There are some who believe that the cross dates back to the time of a medieval monastery in Monks Risborough, and others who believe it to be a prehistoric phallic symbol that was later changed into a more acceptable shape. However, there is no evidence for a monastery in Monks Risborough itself, and no written record of the cross before 1700.

Finereach (talk) 10:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Finereach, Thanks for the suggestions which take things forward well I think. I have taken your proposals and uploaded them into the article to see how it looks and allow for any further editing to be more easily dealt with. What do you think?Tmol42 (talk) 12:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me, and I feel happier now that the Monks have been laid to rest, so to speak.Finereach (talk) 12:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

References

Amendments of 9 Jan 2009

I have altered the paragraph on the name and added a reference. White Cliff is not Old English and there is no evidence that the name was used before Tudor times at the earliest, possibly the 18th century.

I have also changed the paragraph relating to theories on the Cross. I was unhappy that the article implied that some people still believed the story about a medieval monastery although, of all the theories, that is the only one which cannot possibly be right, as there is not only no archaeological evidence for such a monastery but no such monastery is mentioned in the ecclesiastical records of the country nor in the Valor Ecclesiasticus (the valuation made before the dissolution of the monasteries). However the theories are quite amusing and I have added some others that I have seen. Some may think that there should be references to the books where they are quoted, but I am not in a position to give these at present. I hope to add them later. Does anyone know where the story about a monastery came from? I have never seen that one.

I have also restored a short reference to Momks Risborough, as the article did not mention that Whiteleaf is in Monks Risborough.

I hope this will not be contentious. Waysider1925 (talk) 17:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)