Talk:Zagreb Synagogue

Zagreb Synagogue has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
April 20, 2010	Peer review	Reviewed
April 21, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on May 26, 2009.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the site of the Zagreb synagogue (model pictured), demolished in World War II, has been used as a volleyball court and a parking lot?

Current status: Good article

Architecture Low‑importance

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Croatia: Zagreb Low‑importance

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Todo list

I've added a todo list for this article, based on some of my earlier ideas for improvement. Feel free to change it or to add more items. Note that it is certainly not necessary to do all that to reach the GA status, which is our objective at the moment. GregorB (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As for English-language sources, I've found this link. There is a couple of poorly scanned excerpts from The Synagogue and Zagreb (2001), alhough one is by Ivo Goldstein talking about the holocaust in Croatia in general and the other is a summary of Snješka Knežević's work about the synagogue's architecture. I assume one of us will have to go to and visit the Jewish Community's library to pick up the book and see whether anything else useful could be taken from there (although this is unlikely as it seems Snješka's paper is the seminal work on the subject and we already have the Croatian version publised online by the Art History Institute). The paper has many pictures in it which could be extracted, although they are all black-and-white in the scanned version. We should get our hands on the actual Art History Institute's publication in which it was printed and see if we could scan color versions. I assume historic shots are mostly PD as they were take from postcards, but I don't know what would be the status of computer reconstructions. I assume the Art History Institute has copyright rights on those so we will probably have to send them an email requesting permission. Also, Snješka's paper has a list of sources, both in Croatian and English. Most of these were published some decades ago so probably difficult to get hold of, but we could try to find some of the newer ones to use them for in-line citations. As for the actual text, I'll start working on Snješka's text (which deals mostly with architectural description) in my sandbox and see whether more sources could be found for red-linked people in the article (Franjo Klein should be a priority as he designed the synagogue, but I also know he did several historic buildings in Lower City). That's all I can think of for now. Timbouctou (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Yad Vashem scans are already used here - the question is whether more interesting stuff can be found in the book itself, although I agree this is unlikely, since this is a 40-page book after all. Still, it is important as a source because it's in English.

The images are tantalizing. Some of them are clearly PD, some of them are grey area. E.g. 1906 postcard is PD only if one assumes that the author is unknown - it is uncredited and I see no way of finding out who the author is, short of hiring a detective agency. The same goes for that aerial photo in Snješka's paper, page 5 - pure gold. (The cover of Sinagoga i Zagreb apparently uses a cropped version of it.) I've found a JPG, so I guess I might try and upload it to Commons. Department store image would also be interesting, but I'm wondering whether it's worth the effort of jumping through hoops to get copyright clearance. Still, some kind of off-line work will be necessary, because the problem is getting hold of the digital media.

Sandbox for the architecture section is a good idea. You could also create it as a subpage of this article.

There is a redlink I'd like to start with myself, and that's Ivan Standl - of marginal importance here, but I find him interesting. GregorB (talk) 16:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uploaded the aerial photo. GregorB (talk) 00:55, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uploaded the 1906 postcard. GregorB (talk) 20:53, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Made the postcard photo the main illustration. Standl's 1867 photo would probably be the best, but I can't find it online. GregorB (talk) 21:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, a fairly obvious redlink is Jewish Community of Zagreb - but it's actually not linked at all in the article. GregorB (talk) 16:21, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GregorB, which blueprint from "mother of all sources" you think are the best? I can draw one or two of them in AutoCad (I am an architect after all). Kebeta (talk) 19:23, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I created Franjo Klein as a stub article. So, one less red link in the article itself. Kebeta (talk) 19:56, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re-linked Jewish Community of Zagreb to History of the Jews in Croatia. Feel free to change it or create new article: Jewish Community of Zagreb. Kebeta (talk) 20:06, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very good! I added the Commons cat to it (Franjo Klein article) and I'm going to expand it a bit.

As for the blueprints: a ground plan - such as the one from page 13 - would be very useful. However, when I tried to zoom it, it is apparent that it is a some kind of vector format. So, maybe it could be extracted from the PDF, which would be the best option - no need to reproduce it. The architectural design is in the public domain, so this is not an issue copyright-wise. Anyone know how to extract it? There are some freeware tools, but I haven't tried them yet. GregorB (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, bitmap images might be extracted too. The quality is probably sufficient. GregorB (talk) 20:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will try tomorrow. Kebeta (talk) 20:41, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uploaded two images (Computer reconstruction of the ground and the first floor of the Zagreb Synagogue). If needed I can upload "Cross section of the Zagreb Synagogue" and "Longitudinal section of the Zagreb Synagogue". I also made all images a bit smaller, feel free to change it. Kebeta (talk) 10:23, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent! The images are just fine, blueprints are off the checklist now! GregorB (talk) 10:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I expended laed with Historical Background - in what state it was built and in what state was destroyed (although it is all Croatia). You can move it from the lead to History section - if that's better. Kebeta (talk) 11:08, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted section See also as it is redundant. It is mentioned in the article, and I inserted a main articles at the begining of the sections. Kebeta (talk) 11:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Changed from {{Main}} to {{Further}} as these articles' subjects are broader than the article's sections from which they are linked to. "See also" might still be useful even if it's redundant - I'm neutral on that. GregorB (talk) 11:40, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to revert it, but GA reviewers generally don't like it. It looks like it is not covered in the article.

I expanded lead a bit, it looks to small for all the data written in the article. What do you think? Kebeta (talk) 11:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From a prose standpoint, the article looks to be in very good shape. I don't see any major or minor issues at the moment, and I will correct any and all that I spot. As such, I've checked off the task "copyedit the article (mostly for grammar and style)" as completed. I've also been working on reducing the number of red links within the article (there are currently four) and have created Ivan Werner as a Stub article. I also suggest that we nominate the article for GA very soon. As the backlog for nomination reviews is immense (it is currently about a month), we would have more than enough time to bring the article "up to snuff", and it would make the process much shorter compared to the alternative: finishing improving the article, then nominating it for GA and waiting a month for a review. What do you guys think? My regards, Laurinavicius (talk) 03:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, great! (One more copyediting pass might be needed after the expansion, but we'll deal with this later.)

GAN page doesn't look that bad to me at the moment, as I seem to remember seeing much worse backlogs there a couple of months ago. I presume the article will be nominated in the architecture section - only 6 articles there at present, all of them in the pipeline already. But you're right: the article is in good shape for GAN - in particular, it can't be quick-failed. While I'd like to see that the architecture section is expanded before nominating (other possible areas of expansion and improvement are not essential), it's not like something that could not be done in a single afternoon, so yeah, nominating it right away probably would not hurt. GregorB (talk) 08:07, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, sounds good! I've nominated the article for GA. Happy editing! Laurinavicius (talk) 16:04, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very well... I'll leave notices at the projects' (Architecture, Croatia, Judaism) talk pages. GregorB (talk) 17:04, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Zagreb Synagogue/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: S Masters (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Comments:

There are low-level grammar and syntax issues. I suggest a good third-party editor give this a once over. You might be able to get some help from WP:GOCE. Done
Measurements should be converted using {{convert}}, e.g. 80 meters. Done
Zagreb City Museum is already in the text (and in red). Perhpas unlink them in the captions? Done

Summary: There are just some small issues that should not be too difficult to resolve. I will put this article On Hold for for the moment. Let's try and improve these areas in this time.

Final comments: Thanks for all the hard work in making this a better article. I am now satisfied that it meets all the requirements for a Good Article, and I am happy to list it as such. -- S Masters (talk) 07:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your consideration, this is great news. Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this article! GregorB (talk) 11:32, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Additional sources

The following is a good source for future edits: Traganja za prošlim --Jesuislafete (talk) 22:04, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]