Template:Did you know nominations/Diet culture
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Launchballer talk 14:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
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Diet culture
... that diet culture was intertwined with scientific racism in the late 19th century, including the common belief among medical practitioners that black women were unable to control their consumption?
- Source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-racist-roots-of-fighting-obesity2/, “In the eyes of many medical practitioners in the late 19th century, Black women were destined to die off along with the men of their race because of their presumed inability to control their “animal appetites”—eating, drinking and fornicating. These presumptions were not backed by scientific data but instead embodied the prevailing racial scientific logic at the time. Later, some doctors wanted to push Black men to reform their aesthetic preferences. Valorizing voluptuousness in Black women, these physicians claimed, validated their unhealthy diets, behaviors and figures.”
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- Comment: I’m open to alternative hook ideas. Thank you very much!
Moved to mainspace by FortunateSons (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.
FortunateSons (talk) 17:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC).
- I made an error: I wrote the article through AfC, but I’m not the person who moved it into mainspace. Can I just fix that manually, or is there a different way to do it? FortunateSons (talk) 17:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Everything is fine, there is no error. The article was moved to mainspace with a procedural move by an AfC’er, so noting it was moved to mainspace up above by yourself is acceptable, as it could refer to the general process alone in this instance. If nobody reviews in the next several days, I will do so. Viriditas (talk) 08:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Viriditas:Thank you very much! I’ll try to implement the suggested changes during the next few days. FortunateSons (talk) 07:39, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: @FortunateSons: Please give WP:DYKTRIM another read to see if you can shorten the hook. I think you can get rid of the word "common", reduce "medical practitioners" to doctors (or the equivalent) and "consumption" to eating, to start. Viriditas (talk) 09:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- I’m happy to straightforwardly cut down per your suggestion (that diet culture was connected with scientific racism in the 19th century, including the belief among doctors that black women were unable to control their eating?), or would alternatively suggest (that the 19th-century belief among doctors that black women were unable to control their eating is now considered part of diet culture?) I would cite to the teen vogue article (ref 3) either way to avoid any OR issue, but trust your judgement regarding which hook is better? FortunateSons (talk) 18:36, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
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:::*@FortunateSons: I would avoid poor sources like Teen Vogue for a DYK hook about medical history and focus on the best sources available, leaning towards scholarly and academic ones, if available. You also need to fix the authors in the cited source. You have Condé Nast cited as the author, but that's the publisher. The authors of the article are Cameron Katz and Annie Elledge. Elledge is the subject matter expert here, but she's still a PhD student in the Department of Geography at UNC. Her dissertation is on the weight-inclusive wellness industry in North Carolina’s Research Triangle, which is frankly, an interesting subject, but I don't think she's published it yet. She has published similar research before.[1] That article implies she's citing Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia (2019) by sociologist Sabrina Strings, but there was some minor criticism (Laura Jennings in our Wikipedia article). Glancing at Strings 2019, I don't see anything about "diet culture", so one wonders if this is Elledge's thesis that connects the two ideas together. If so, I think we need to be careful here, as I all I see here is her Master's thesis, as it looks like she's still working on her PhD. My personal opinion is that we should stick with the expert sources that we have, not the future experts. If Elledge is simply citing Strings, we need to be careful about closely linked this is to the concept of diet culture because Strings doesn't talk about this, and Elledge is not yet an expert in her field. So, on the one hand, I think your hook is important, on the other, I think we need to focus on solid hooks that are rooted in material directly about the subject based on good sources. You might want to look to see if Sabrina Strings has talked about diet culture, as that would seal the deal. Viriditas (talk) 18:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
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- ALT1: ... that both scholars and activists believe that diet culture is often intertwined with racism and other forms of prejudice?
- Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277539521001217 “For women of colour, diet culture was said to be reinforced through intersecting systems of patriarchy and racism, and further fuelled by capitalist systems that marketed the thin, white female body as a universal ideal.“ (p.7); “A focus on patriarchy, racism, and capitalism is often prevalent in the work of feminist and fat activists“; “We found that diet culture is characterised by a conflation of weight and health including myths about food and eating, and a moral hierarchy of bodies derived from patriarchal, racist, and capitalist forms of domination.” (p.9);
- ALT2: ... that some analysis of diet culture utilises an intersectional approach to discuss the interactions of prejudice based on gender, race, and weight?
- Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277539521001217 “Some feminist writers have explicitly used the term ‘diet culture’ in their analyses, especially feminist researchers focusing on weight (e.g., Jovanovski, 2017; Gagliardi, 2018; Kinavey & Cool, 2019b; Murray, 2020b). For example, Jovanovski (2017) describes ‘diet culture’ as a gendered form of surveillance, instantiated and reproduced by patriarchy to divorce women from their bodies and their appetites. Others, such as Gagliardi (2018), briefly reference the term ‘diet culture’ in relation to the marketing of weight-loss dieting products using the language of the Women's Liberation Movement and, specifically, the notion of female solidarity. Merson's (2021) paper also uses the term ‘diet culture’ to advance an intersectional perspective on weight and food restriction, citing the combined influences of patriarchy and anti-blackness in stigmatising larger-bodied women of colour. In these sources and others like them (e.g., O'Shea, 2020), diet culture is generally referenced to signify a harmful veneration for thin, or related, appearance ideals that results in women's subjugation.” (p. 2)
Copy of user talk page discussion
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I'm going to make a brief, but detailed roadmap of how this DYK can pass. I will update it in an hour or so. I'm doing this because I think my last attempt was too ambiguous. Viriditas (talk) 18:30, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to start moving things along and moving towards closure on this DYK. Some questions:
More in a bit. Viriditas (talk) 20:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
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Preliminary review comments
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Current hook and source are not explicitly about "diet culture". There are, however, related aspects about diet culture and racism in other sources that may be used instead. Additional problems discussed above. Jovanovski & Jaeger 2022 discuss the complexity of the topic and the interweaving narratives in their paper, a perspective that isn't reflected in the article (for example, neither the lead nor the body make it clear that this topic is part of the anti-diet movement composed of a coalition of feminists, fat activists and health professionals, etc.) Additional work is needed to frame this subject accurately within the strict narrative of sources about "diet culture". Another issue is the current controversy around the subject. As you may know, The Washington Post attacked many of the people associated with the movement as a front for "Big Food", although there are questions as to whether this criticism is legitimate.[2][3][4] NPR covered this in April.[5] One of the takeaways here is that the term "diet culture" is part of the anti-diet movement and this isn't clear in the article. There is also a strong relationship with fatphobia, and it may be instructive to review the article on the social stigma of obesity. Given that race and fat acceptance is already covered in that article, I'm wondering if we really need two articles on this subject. I think we could conceivably keep this treatment separate using several different approaches. For example, registered dietitian and nutritionist Christy Harrison (who studied public-health nutrition at NYU) gives the subject an extensive treatment in her book Anti-Diet (2019). There, she defines the subject as "a system of beliefs that equates thinness, muscularity, and particular body shapes with health and moral virtue; promotes weight loss and body reshaping as a means of attaining higher status; demonizes certain foods and food groups while elevating others; and oppresses people who don't match its supposed picture of 'health.'" I think if we stick closely to the sources about diet culture we should be able to salvage this article. Note: Current version is greatly improved and I'm looking forward to signing off on new hooks.
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- Final review
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
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| QPQ: None required. |
Support ALT1 and ALT2. Struck ALT0 for reasons discussed above in collapsed discussion and on user talk page in further discussion. I also copyedited the article and deleted the last paragraph because it was not ready for prime time. Feel free to rewrite it and add it back in without the weasel words by adding attribution. Personally, I think it's fine without it right now, but there is much more to say, of course. You might want to look again at the NPR and WaPo sources that explore this specific subtopic. Viriditas (talk) 00:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)