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Scope

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I am not quite sure about the scope of this article navbox. Sometimes I am not sure if an author is Lutheran, or is it enough to have ended in a Lutheran hymnal? Somtimes I am not sure it's a hymn, such as "Es ist genug", which never made it to a hymnal afaik, but was used as a Bach chorale. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:02, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also Zahn 7173: Zahn gives a few variants of the melody from different hymnals and composers. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re. "... this article" – Well, it is not an article: it is a navbox. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re. scope: a hymn in this navbox needs...
    • ... to have a separate Wikipedia article (no navboxes on redirects: redirects can be added to Category:Lutheran hymns though)
    • ... to be "Lutheran", which I understand as deeply embedded in Lutheran practice, and "a hymn", i.e.:
      • Preferably originated in Lutheranism, or at least to a larger extent adopted in Lutheranism than in any other tradition
      • Preferably in vernacular (which would be mostly German), although a few macaronic ones may be eligible too; most Latin hymns (several of them were adopted in Lutheranism) would be largely excluded
      • Preferably formally a hymn, i.e. metrical and/or with a melody listed by Zahn (would exclude Meine Seele erhebt den Herren)
      • As the bulk of Lutheran hymn production had ceased by the end of the 17th century very few of those composed at a later date would be eligible (BWV 505 might be an exception, if it ever gets a separate article)
      • Demonstrably adopted in Lutheran church practice (doesn't need to be EG or a recent hymnal: may e.g. have been widely adopted in 17th-century hymnals, and then forgotten)
    Please let us know whether you think this workable criteria: they probably can be fine-tuned. Individual borderline cases (some Christmas hymns as well adopted inside and outside of Lutheranism come to mind) can be discussed here or at the article's talk page whether they should be included in this navbox or not. I'm a bit weary the navbox may become unwieldy in the long run (there are over 160 hymns listed currently in the Lutheran hymns category... if they would all get separate articles other solutions may be necessary): thus I would exclude borderline cases mostly, and/or make the selection criteria still more exclusive. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The criteria are fine with me, but see below, what with those which don't fit? - When I wrote "hymnal" above, I was sloppy and didn't specify "to be sung by a congregation", which the early collections were not, and I doubt that the typical Leipzig church-goer would carry the Neu Leipziger Gesangbuch. But I may be wrong? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Neu Leipziger Gesangbuch marks a few (mostly monodic) songs/hymns as "choraliter" (as opposed to "figuraliter" being implied for most of the others): choraliter implying, as far as I understand, to be sung by the congregation. The next edition of the Leipziger Gesangbuch (1693) only contained hymn texts (without music) and had a compacter format – by then practice was changing: "Cantional" type of hymnals (of which the 1682 Neu Leipziger Gesangbuch had been one of the last prominent examples) had grown out of fashion, and the congregation sung all of the hymn tunes (as monodic melodies) with an instrumental accompaniment realising the harmony (the Figuralmusik was less often printed, and if so, e.g. cantata cycles by Telemann, not in hymnals). Also Schemellis Gesangbuch (1736) adopted the "choraliter only" format: less than 10% of the hymns had music, and those that had only as a monodic singing tune with a harmonic instrumental accompaniment (written down as thorough bass in this instance). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:48, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for explaining. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The others?

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What should we do with the other hymns, Catholic, Ecumenical, Reformed, some falling in more than one category which we also don't (yet) have? I sang "Lobe den Herren" last Sunday in a Catholic church, - some "Lutheran" are sung there quite frequently. The mark "ö" in the hymnals, Protestant and Catholic, marks common use for both. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but what about one both Protestant and Catholic, such as Lobe den Herren, - how can ecumnism show? - Btw, I'd say {{Catholic hymns}}, corresponding to Catholic Church. "Roman" looks almost misleading for the many German hymns ;) - For Catholic, we face more than for Protestant that the traditional singing was not rhymed and metered, but still hymns, at least in the first meaning "songs of praise". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have few opinions on which of these would be feasible or not. So either be bold and start those you think most likely to succeed, or take this discussion to a more general platform (e.g. a suitable project talk page): whatever is not about {{Lutheran hymns}} and its limits should probably better be discussed elsewhere. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:02, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, later perhaps, busy. I was just looking for a place for "Es ist ein Ros entsprungen" which still is in the cat Lutheran hymns, and rightly so, because it's in current use, and beloved, in Lutheran/Protestant services, in a slightly different wording from the original. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(I know this is old, but I read it anyway)--With Catholic hymns, due to the large number of them, you would need to separate the hymns by topic, with a separate template for each topic. This is already done (interdenominationally) for Template:Advent as a separate subsection. In theory you could even nest some of the smaller templates together in rare cases where this is preferred--for example, a Lent hymn template could nest together with a Holy Week hymn template. One concern with integrating smaller boxes into one big template is that collapsible subboxes may not show well on mobile phones. Possibly separating the template into smaller topic templates will need to be done to the Lutheran hymn template if it grows a lot more. --Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Format

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Do we need all the quotation marks? I understand that we need them in prose, to see what's a hymn name because it looks like prose, but why in this navbox where it's clear? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say they are not needed, if nobody opposes they can be removed as far as I'm concerned (for comparison, in {{Bach spurious}} they were needed while containing as well short vocal works as cantatas). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:55, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Let's wait a week perhaps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:21, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Topics

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I agree that sorting the hymns by topic is better than the load of foreign-language titles. I miss seeing which songs are based on psalms, one of Luther's early intentions. These go to different topics. "Ein feste Burg" = Psalm 46. What can we do? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We could make a text appear floating when you hover over it. I will try it for just one and see if you like it.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I did it with Macht hoch die Tür, Lift Up Your Heads--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree, at least for mobile use. Maybe I should separate it into two templates, one in English-titles only and one in original languages? People could collapse the one they don't want to look through. The English-titles-only template would be missing some that have not been translated, or are only used as tunes. There isn't a single hymn article yet that has been written about a hymn in English first and is not German/Norwegian/Swedish.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 23:24, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am opposed to alphabetical listing on the proposed English one for now. Looking at the monthly statistics it seems that a large proportion of the visits for seasonal hymns come during the church seasons in which they are used--this means (I think) people are using the topic sections. I'm not sure about on the proposed German one; I want to see what Gerda says. If both of you want it strictly alphabetical I can edit it to be that way.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 04:03, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe like this: --Epiphyllumlover (talk) 05:06, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is rather what I had in mind. Already done for all German Lutheran Easter hymns. The {{German Lutheran hymns}} template can be used in articles on hymns for other feasts too; the "Easter"-related template is a model for what can be made for other feasts, and for instance also for Psalm-based hymns (etc).

I really don't see the need for a template that directs readers (for instance) to Easter hymns at Christmas, and to Christmas hymns at Eastertide (even if your assumption above would be right, which I doubt). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:52, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there seems to be some confusion what a navigational template (navbox) like this one is for: it is to be placed in relevant articles, it is not an alternative structured list in template namespace. I say this because there were surprisingly few German Easter hymn pages that already had the current template (that is, before I placed the two other templates on these articles this morning). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also all hymns and songs listed in {{Hymns and songs based on Psalms}} now done. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favor of separate seasonal templates for seasonal articles, but for hymn articles an alphabetized list by subject is best. As the non-seasonal hymns do not qualify for a seasonal template, one would need a generalized list for them anyway. It would not due to omit just the seasonal hymns for such a generalized list. I am going to go ahead and create the English template, and will use it alongside the German one on at least some articles for now. I may also seek feedback from the talk pages on individual hymns--like if it seems there may be too many templates.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:53, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Views of hymns

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Known to English speaking Lutherans? Hymn Yearly views Monthly average Edits Editors Size Watchers Topic
x Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland 11,575 965 37 11 14,955 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Vom Himmel hoch, da komm ich her 8,547 712 4 4 24,814 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Ich steh an deiner Krippen hier 3,910 326 1 1 11,152 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Macht hoch die Tür 3,101 258 3 2 11,795 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Wie soll ich dich empfangen 2,811 234 1 1 10,418 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ 2,760 230 2 2 8,538 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Det kimer nu til julefest 2,646 221 6 4 2,322 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Lobt Gott, ihr Christen alle gleich 1,587 132 0 0 5,784 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Bereden väg för Herran 1,488 124 3 3 4,096 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Christum wir sollen loben schon 1,419 118 2 2 4,122 Unknown Advent/Christmas
Advent är mörker och kyla 496 41 0 0 2,037 Unknown Advent/Christmas
Det är advent 419 35 1 1 2,650 Unknown Advent/Christmas
x Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern 6,278 523 5 4 11,500 Unknown Epiphany
x O Mensch, bewein dein Sünde groß 4,983 415 1 1 5,622 Unknown Lent/Passion
x Herzliebster Jesu 4,089 341 1 1 5,241 Unknown Lent/Passion
x O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig 3,408 284 1 1 10,848 Unknown Lent/Passion
Tune An Wasserflüssen Babylon 3,403 284 11 7 52,291 Unknown Lent/Passion
x O Sacred Head, Now Wounded 25,640 2,137 8 7 11,338 Unknown Lent/Passion
x Herr Christ, der einig Gotts Sohn 1,791 149 3 3 11,268 Unknown Epiphany
x O Welt, sieh hier dein Leben 1,333 111 4 2 7,350 Unknown Lent/Passion
x Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld 1,070 89 2 1 18,171 Unknown Lent/Passion
x Da der Herr Christ zu Tische saß 631 53 0 0 5,662 Unknown Lent/Passion
x Christ lag in Todesbanden 6,558 547 6 2 17,249 Unknown Easter
Geh aus, mein Herz, und suche Freud 2,291 191 2 2 6,506 Unknown Easter
Tune Erschienen ist der herrlich Tag 2,091 174 5 4 12,606 Unknown Easter
Tune Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der den Tod überwand 1,756 146 0 0 4,060 Unknown Easter
Wir wollen alle fröhlich sein 1,232 103 1 1 4,641 Unknown Easter
Jesus för världen givit sitt liv 1,126 94 0 0 2,954 Unknown Easter
x Heut triumphieret Gottes Sohn 145 12 0 0 11,176 Unknown Easter
x A Mighty Fortress Is Our God 61,859 5,155 21 12 22,400 51 Reformation
x Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr 3,975 331 10 2 12,875 Unknown Trinity
x Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein 3,165 264 2 2 8,754 Unknown Reformation
x Komm, Heiliger Geist, Herre Gott 2,801 233 5 5 10,933 Unknown Pentacost
x Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist 2,625 219 39 6 24,719 Unknown Pentacost
x Komm, Gott Schöpfer, Heiliger Geist 2,383 199 1 1 5,291 Unknown Pentacost
x Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort 2,253 188 0 0 9,922 Unknown Reformation
x God's Word Is Our Great Heritage 1,391 116 2 2 2,607 Unknown Reformation
x Wär Gott nicht mit uns diese Zeit 878 73 1 1 8,919 Unknown Reformation
Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält 672 56 0 0 4,122 Unknown Reformation
x Nun freut euch, lieben Christen g'mein 2,563 214 3 1 4,104 Unknown Justification/Law and Gospel
x Es ist das Heil uns kommen her 2,261 188 0 0 9,838 Unknown Justification/Law and Gospel
x Dies sind die heilgen zehn Gebot 1,289 107 0 0 5,706 Unknown Justification/Law and Gospel
Es spricht der Unweisen Mund wohl 877 73 1 1 7,449 Unknown The Church
x Jerusalem, du hochgebaute Stadt 733 61 0 0 9,166 Unknown Life Everlasting
Herr Jesu Christ, du höchstes Gut 591 49 0 0 7,583 Unknown Trials
Ach Gott, wie manches Herzeleid 579 48 8 2 4,869 Unknown Trials
Ach lieben Christen seid getrost 556 46 0 0 8,700 Unknown Trials
Sie ist mir lieb, die werte Magd 426 36 0 0 1,690 Unknown The Church
Day by Day (hymn) 9,506 792 2 2 3,979 Unknown Trials
x Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten 4,955 413 6 5 12,578 Unknown Trials
x Straf mich nicht in deinem Zorn 960 80 0 0 6,291 Unknown Trials
x Warum sollt ich mich denn grämen 889 74 6 2 8,073 Unknown Trials
Ich hab in Gottes Herz und Sinn 607 51 0 0 5,851 Unknown Trials
Was willst du dich betrüben 474 40 0 0 8,291 Unknown Trials
Warum betrübst du dich, mein Herz 425 35 0 0 3,355 Unknown Trials
x Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele 3,400 283 0 0 9,338 Unknown Lord's Supper
x Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam 3,279 273 5 4 14,252 Unknown Baptism
x Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der von uns den Gotteszorn wandt 2,180 182 0 0 22,538 Unknown Lord's Supper
x Tryggare kan ingen vara 1,696 141 3 3 4,868 Unknown Baptism
x Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet 936 78 2 2 9,564 Unknown Lord's Supper
Im Frieden dein, o Herre mein 889 74 21 5 14,674 Unknown Lord's Supper
Tune Herzlich tut mich verlangen 5,164 430 2 2 10,753 Unknown Burials
x Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir 4,533 378 9 4 9,661 Unknown Burials
Tune Es ist genug 3,730 311 11 4 8,721 Unknown Burials
x Mitten wir im Leben sind 3,006 251 1 1 8,846 Unknown Burials
x Valet will ich dir geben 2,569 214 1 1 6,133 Unknown Burials
x Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin 2,147 179 2 2 11,585 Unknown Burials
x Herzlich lieb hab ich dich, o Herr 1,636 136 0 0 7,913 Unknown Burials
x Meinen Jesum laß ich nicht 788 66 0 0 6,840 Unknown Burials
x Herr Jesu Christ, wahr Mensch und Gott 571 48 1 1 7,907 Unknown Burials
x Nun lasst uns den Leib begraben 490 41 0 0 1,023 Unknown Burials
x How Great Thou Art 182,070 15,173 41 24 54,357 51 Thanks and Praise
De Levendes Land 1,954 163 3 3 2,639 Unknown Thanks and Praise
x Herr Gott, dich loben wir 1,948 162 2 2 5,178 Unknown Thanks and Praise
Du meine Seele singe 1,239 103 0 0 5,541 Unknown Thanks and Praise
x Nun danket all und bringet Ehr 1,153 96 22 3 13,660 Unknown Thanks and Praise
x Es woll uns Gott genädig sein 1,090 91 1 1 10,182 Unknown Thanks and Praise
x Ich singe dir mit Herz und Mund 800 67 0 0 2,949 Unknown Thanks and Praise
x Wer weiß, wie nahe mir mein Ende 752 63 0 0 5,834 Unknown Thanks and Praise
x Now Thank We All Our God 18,050 1,504 5 5 11,481 Unknown Thanks and Praise
Die beste Zeit im Jahr ist mein 618 52 1 1 7,953 Unknown Thanks and Praise
x Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme 13,545 1,129 19 5 12,977 Unknown Evening
x Vater unser im Himmelreich 7,332 611 1 1 14,059 Unknown Lord's Prayer
x Wir glauben all an einen Gott 2,254 188 1 1 3,057 Unknown Creed
Tune Werde munter, mein Gemüte 2,118 177 1 1 4,202 Unknown Evening
x Nun lob, mein Seel, den Herren 1,917 160 1 1 6,539 Unknown Thanks and Praise
x Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend 1,309 109 0 0 6,403 Unknown Opening of Service
x Die güldne Sonne voll Freud und Wonne 1,308 109 0 0 2,264 Unknown Morning
Tune Nun laßt uns Gott dem Herren 772 64 0 0 6,238 Unknown Thanks and Praise

Note: I don't know why it says some of these articles have zero editors, obviously that is impossible unless everyone was an IP editor with no username. Stats in the table are from March 2019 through February 2020.

Sources (some are missing from the links below, but not many are missing. I also omitted at least one and maybe a few others from the table above due to the article being new):

Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I collapsed the table. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:52, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay with me.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:59, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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