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Archive 30

I recognize that this user page belongs to the Wikipedia project and not to me personally. As such, I recognize that I am expected to respectfully abide by community standards as to the presentation and content of this page, and that if I do not like these guidelines, I am welcome either to engage in reasonable discussion about it, to publish my material elsewhere, or to leave the project.


This is an archive of User talk:Lar from about 1 May 2007 through about 1 Jun 2007. Please do not comment here, use my current talk page for that, thanks. It is part of a series of archives, see the box at right for the list and to navigate to others.

An index to all my talk page archives, automatically maintained by User:HBC Archive Indexerbot can be found at User:Lar/TalkArchiveIndex.

Talk Page Archives
My post 2012 archived talk
Archive 79 1 December 2012 through 1 December 2013
Archive 80 1 December 2013 through 1 December 2016
Archive 81 1 December 2016 through 1 December 2018
Archive 82 1 December 2018 through 1 January 2021
Archive 83 1 January 2021 through 1 January 2023
Archive 84 1 January 2023 through 1 January 2025 ??
RfA Thank Yous
RFA Archive Howcheng (27 Dec 2005) through present
All dates approximate, conversations organised by thread start date


Tobias

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You could also mention his block at meta ([1]). His list of wikipedia accounts is here: [2]. ShivaIdol 01:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks. As you can tell, I'm working on that stuff in fits and starts. Appreciate the pointers. You and I may differ on his value to the project though. I keep hoping he's salvagable... perhaps that's just pigheaded optimism, but he really does care about the project itself even if he has challenges contributing in a way that is collegial. ++Lar: t/c 10:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Lar...

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A silly goose for you,
From another silly goose!

 ;)

Phaedriel
14:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Heads up

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Thought you might be interested in this thread. WjBscribe 00:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'm the other user he refers to, actually, so obviously I agree with your assessment. :) ++Lar: t/c 02:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so where did I go wrong?

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Good evening, as you know, I decided to make a move towards adminship and nominate myself yesterday, as you could see, this enveavour was laregly unsuccessful, and I am quite frustrated and disappointed to learn of this. To be perfectly honest, I kind of knew it would not work at this particular time, but I still felt there was a slight chance. I am particularly frustrated because I feel a couple of users who opposed me did so for the wrong reasons. I have my doubts that RWR8189 did so for the right reasons because he had followed me around for around a month, and reverted just about every edit I made. And the "edit war" regarding the Soviet Union was based on valid info (I was still looking for the source), and it did NOT last for a month. Also I was criticised by Redvers on the grounds that I lacked civility and temprement, I'm sorry, but I still don't see any evidence that this user, an admin for that matter, holds either of these traits, but I am willing to forget about all that for now. It really bugs me though to see that my hard work has thus far been unnoticed, I've done enough to earn at least one barnstar, and others have received them for less work.

I don't think the reactions I received were accurately representitave of my abilities, but I realise there are some major issues in my editing style to be worked out. So here is the question to you, you are an administrator, you have been given approval by someone; given that, what can I do in the next five months or so ensure better support the next time I go for adminship, or better yet, what will it take to be nominated? Adminship remains a goal of mine and I remain more than convinced it is still attainable. Please advise?EnglishEfternamntalkcontribs 00:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read my words in your editor review? I'd advise you to think about them, about what I was trying to say. That's the best advice I can give you at this time... ++Lar: t/c 01:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, well, one more thing, I would like to take the next month or so to prove that I do have the civility and temprement needed. I know that not all who participate in conflict resolution are admins. Thus, what can I do to start participating in that area?EnglishEfternamntalkcontribs 21:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For starters, work hard to resolve your own conflicts civilly and collegialy. That includes sometimes admitting that you might not be right. I'd strongly suggest that you think hard about the UK/US spelling of Socialism conflict you were involved in. Understanding exactly WHY that leaves a really bad taste in people's mouths will help you do better going forward. Again, I commend that you read carefully everything I said in the editor review and think about how to apply it to your actions. That may seem strong advice but once you get a reputation a certain way you have to work extra hard to turn it around. ++Lar: t/c 13:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

USRD Newsletter - Issue 7

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Hello, Lar. A new issue of the newsletter is available to read here. --VshBot (t • c) 19:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XIV (April 2007)

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The April 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 15:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC) [reply]

Commons block

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Hi, it appears Gmaxwell blocked me on Commons due to my recent RfA. Could you please request a review of that block on the commons' admin's noticeboard? Thank you very much. Errabee 17:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that you have placed {{unblock}} on your talk page there, which should get you some additional review but I will mention it. You should know that I find Gmaxwell's position fairly compelling... I do think you deliberately misstated things on Commons and am not comfortable with that sort of thing as a practice. ++Lar: t/c 17:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your attitude towards me is exactly the reason I asked you. I don't want anyone to think I asked people sympathetic to my cause to rally on my behalf. I want an objective review, taking all facts into account. Errabee 18:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Lar, I jusr saw the thread above, what is it exactly that Errabee has done that is so dreadful? I merely ask because I (and probably many others reading this) have no idea? and cannot be bothered to trawl hundreds of edit and probably miss the crux of the matter anyway. Thanks Giano 18:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Errabee: I have done as you asked. See Commons:Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard/User_problems#Indefinite_block_of_User:Errabee_by__User:Gmaxwell. If I have time I will add more background material... Giano: The crux of the matter is that Errabee uploaded a lot of files and then (many feel) misrepresented the license status on them, many feel in order to try to force them to be deleted. Many feel that that he misstated things (some would use stronger words like "lied") either initially when uploading, or after wanting them deleted, and then admitted as much later. The diff to the admission is in his recent RfA. The deletion requests can be found on Commons, I will try to make time to dig for the archived request, or perhaps Errabee can supply it. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 19:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The deletion request is here. As I've said before, I've taken all photographs, and only tried to prove my point when I wanted to have them deleted. If you call that a lie, I can live with that, but there is absolutely no evidence that would indicate future problems. I didn't edit or upload in Commons for 6 months, so there has been no need for a block. Only when I regained some faith in the future of Commons after I found out about the new licensing policy, I made one (legitimate) upload, and supplied it with a correct license tag. Errabee 19:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like an abuse of power to me, if what Errabee has said above is true. --kingboyk 16:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's not the whole story. I am not sure I'd have blocked though. ++Lar: t/c 18:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Micronations

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Hi Lar. This will take you back a bit... right back to when we first met, in fact :) I've been having another shifty through micronations articles, and continue to find cruft and unbalanced reporting. The debate we took part in last time didn't reach any conclusion, so I've moved the old category talk page to Wikipedia talk:Micronations and started work on a proposed guideline at Wikipedia:Micronations. Please take a look if you have the time. --kingboyk 16:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give it a boo but no promises, I'm behind on stuff I should have been doing months ago. I really like the chart showing results, and the general principles outlined on the page. ++Lar: t/c 18:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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I will decide later where to put this... {{Userlinks-an|Lar}} gives: Lar (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log · search noticeboard archives)... I am dubious that i have been mentioned that many times on AN/I though :) ++Lar: t/c 06:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This too is cool... http://tools.wikimedia.de/~dschwen/commons_geo/map.html ... if you have geocoded your images on commons, this tool displays them on the map where they are. ++Lar: t/c 13:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've improved the regexp in {{userlinks-an}} so that it works better on very short usernames like yours. There are still a lot of mentions shown there, but they do seem to be correct (it's sometimes very minor, like someone replying to you in a thread and mentioning you by name, which counts). --ais523 16:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi! Glad you turned up here... Spot checking seems to show that most if not all of the 69 remaining mentions are legit... the 7100 odd mentions before seemed a bit much even for a notorious troublemaker like me! Thanks for sorting that, and moreover, thanks for your efforts with the template, it seems tres useful to be able to refer to Eagle and George's nifty tool directly... Yes, a short username does cause problems at times.. but I've had this username since the 1980s in one place or another and am loath to give it up. :)

The types that are going for RfA these days...!

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As you are in no way a meatpuppet I invite you, as someone who has worked closely with me at several times in the past, to comment at my RfA here. I shan't ask you to be honest, because I wouldn't expect anything else. Cheers. LessHeard vanU 01:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know I'm not a meatpuppet of Edgieboy? Answered. and you're a damnfool for wanting the job. ++Lar: t/c 12:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am Edgieboy, and so is my wife!
WHOM I've slept with! (in best Liar voice, ++Lar)
I needed something to fill the gap left by leaving the Project, where I was pretty much acting in a de facto admin manner anyway. Also, I can make WP better with the tools than without so it would be selfish just to keep pratting around rather than focusing. LessHeard vanU 19:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your many fans would rather you pratted around and pattered on in your own inimitable way, but ok then, you're the boss... Oh and don't ask Kingboyk, he'll probably stiff you. ++Lar: t/c 21:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fans?
As for Steve, I ran it past him before deciding. He suggested I might not be ready yet, so I went and steamed right in. I think it is a no lose situation, I get a lot of useful comments and opinions no matter what the outcome. LessHeard vanU 21:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...and getting 'the nod' as well!

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Steve has suggested you may be wanting the receipt of a bar of bullion, in the unlikely shape of a rectangle involving two rows of four regularly raised dimples on the top surface, to be paid into an account entitled "Cabal". It aint gonna happen. You will have to make do with my gratitude instead.

Um, any words of wisdom for a newbie admin? LessHeard vanU 23:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

congrats. I have gold 2x4 bricks already so that's sorted. :) As for words of wisdom? Go slow, ask for advice, seek consensus first before acting, start with small, noncontroversial cleanup tasks... the usual stuff. If you need help just ask. ++Lar: t/c 01:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

#wikipedia-en-admins

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Hello! I noticed you recently processed my request at Wikipedia:IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins to gain access to the admin IRC channel. For some reason though it is still telling me I need an invite to join, though I am logged into NickServ and everything; do you know what could be causing this? Krimpet (talk) 20:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have you paid your Cartel membership fee? I believe it involves sending a gold bullion to Lar's bank in the Cayman Islands :P --kingboyk 20:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You need to self invite yourself to get in. See this page for more info: User:Lar/Essays where it describes (under misc notes) issuing this command: to self invite: /msg chanserv invite #channel ... in this case "channel" is wikipedia-en-admins. Do that everytime you want to join, or put it in your IRC client startup script. Catch me on IRC some time, Krimpet, if you're still stuck... And I take US dollars too as well as bullion. As for Kingboyk's comments... what is it they say.. if you don't have anything helpful to say.. ?? :) ++Lar: t/c 21:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just as well you don't follow your own advice Lar :P --kingboyk 21:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You silly git. Someone asked me a serious question and instead of answering it nicely, you natter on about secret bank accounts (to be sure, if some bullion HAD turned up in my account in the Shetlands, I'd share it with you...) On the other hand, I answered the question in a right smart fashion, as even you would have to admit. Now be off... but don't stay away TOO long... your beer's getting warm. ++Lar: t/c 21:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That did the trick, thanks! =) Now, does the cabal accept PayPal, or should I send a check? Krimpet (talk) 21:52, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My fee is in the post. I'm kingboyk on irc. I have a "cloak" whatever that means, and hereby request permission to get an invite to the admins channel please Lar. Be gentle with me if I have the lingo wrong, irc is a mystery to me :) --kingboyk 21:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have added you, MartinP was a trooper and stood up for you... You'll still have to self invite. LMK if you're not sorted (w.r.t. IRC I mean... you have many other issues I've no time to sort at the moment, my dear friend) ++Lar: t/c 22:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Lar. --kingboyk 23:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on Big Sister (brothel)

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Hello, I'm about to file a Request for Comments on Big Sister (brothel) and would like to solicit your position statement on Talk:Big Sister (brothel). Thanks, AxelBoldt 01:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My email

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In response to your question, it would seem my email had been disabled because Wikipedia now wants email addresses confirmed. This wasn't so when I initially enabled me email. I have enabled it. -- Cecropia 21:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I think that there has also been something mysterious that maybe occasionally disabled it.. I know at least one other person that has had their mail go disabled on them for no apparent reason. ++Lar: t/c 21:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Larry, thanks for yours. I have responded in reply. I hope it clears up some things for you. Cheers, Cecropia 23:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:TIA 2006ToyFair LEGO Batman Promo Dscn7058a.jpg

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Hello Lar, an automated process has found an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, such as fair use. The image (Image:TIA 2006ToyFair LEGO Batman Promo Dscn7058a.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Lar/GallerySelfTaken. This image or media will be removed per statement number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. The image that was replaced will not be automatically deleted, but it could be deleted at a later date. Articles using the same image should not be affected by my edits. I ask you to please not re-add the image to your userpage and could consider finding a replacement image licensed under either the Creative Commons or GFDL license or released to the public domain. Thanks for your attention and cooperation. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 01:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorted. Thanks for the heads up, dear robot. ++Lar: t/c 03:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let It Be... Naked article blocked

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The Let It Be... Naked article has been blocked because of the inclusion of copyrighted material. I hope you can help fix it so the rewritten article can be restored. Steelbeard1 13:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What needs doing? Merge the new, non copyvio stuff with the old article history? I do agree that the text as it was does seem to have some similarities to material that Misza15 found. "In February 2002, following a chance meeting of Paul McCartney and the film's original director, Michael Lindsay-Hogg" occurs in both places, for example... But once the new article is ready I can do a delete/move/history merge as needed. ++Lar: t/c 00:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

USRD Newsletter - Issue 8

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Hello, Lar. A new issue of the newsletter is available to read here. --VshBot (t • c) 19:14, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No include

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Sorry, but I've forgotten the code for "noinclude", and it doesn't seem to be in Help:Magic words. Do you know it? Thanks. · AndonicO Talk 23:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's just the word "noinclude" surrounded with html start/end angle brackets to start it, and with a leading slash to end it. Like this: <noinclude> whatever you don't want included</noinclude> there is also an includeonly, same syntax, but opposite meaning, that actually may be a better choice... presumably it's your main page you want put in the category, not the template. Hope that helps, happy editing. ++Lar: t/c 03:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mucho thanks!

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Lar, I wanted to extend a belated by very heart-felt thanks to you for all your hard work in admin coaching. As you know, I was a little uncertain when we finally got started, but the thinking you prompted me to do really helped make my direction clear, and I really believe it more than prepared me. As I get started mopping floors, I hope you don't mind if I continue to occasionally knock on your door, and seek wisdom and counsel. Again, many thanks! Akradecki 04:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course! I'm only too happy to help if I can. Oh, and I trimmed your sig the way Tony will just so you get used to it. :) ++Lar: t/c 15:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Notability and deletion - the reality

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One thing I have learnt from being involved in this mess - is that titled people, MPs and Bishops etc are exempt from deletion, as even the smallest stub on them has the possibility to expanded and their rank confers notability. I don't agree with it, I don't like but that is the way it seems to be. That may not be cast in wiki-law but many will troop and vote "keep" in those grounds were one of those people were nominated. Earlier this week a "General Arbuthnot" was almost saved, but was deleted when it was found his rank had been exaggerated [3]. However many voted to save him because he was a general, although that was the only information given about him. So the reality and truth of this situation is that rank and prestige give immunity to deletion. Giano 16:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hm... I thought generals were not all that rare in the grand scheme of things. I wonder it that notability thing is as true for say, generals in the army of Fiji (with all due respect to Fiji-ans out there, I was just picking a random smallish country) as it is for the US, UK, USSR, PRC, Italy, etc? ++Lar: t/c 16:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you probably could with difficulty get a page deleted that said simply "General Giano was a brave heroic and very hansome general" but there is no way a page will ever be deleted that says "Sir Giano 9th Baronet of Little Pissing-in-the-Marsh is a well bred aristocrat who like to flog peasants". Giano 17:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bad example, Giano :) as I'd never nominate you for deletion, trust me! No matter what costume you were wearing. But I think you'll see that there is an emerging consensus (and especially for living people) that "no article" is better than "bad article" ... you can expect to see some more concerted efforts to rid the encyclopedia of truly execrable articles, even about people who are notable, in order to clear the way for a better one to be written, when someone has time and interest. That's what I meant about superstubbing... your example would become Sir Giano 9th Baronet of Little Pissing-in-the-Marsh (1888-1969) and nothing more, leaving out the unsourced flogging of claims of flogging of peasants. At least that is what I'd (and other editors) like to see happen. There is no deadline. I do agree that you've accurately described things as they are now, but hopefully not as they shall remain forever. And sometimes asserting X is the way to get X to happen. ++Lar: t/c 17:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the meantime we have to sort out the Arbuthnot mess first, I have just voted on a further three that I did not even know were up for deletion - that must be at least 10 in the last week alone, and there are still 60 odd to be sorted through and checked. Giano 17:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My (MaxSem's) RfA

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Hi Larry. I'd like to thank you for your support of my RfA. It was closed at surprising 75/0/0, so I'm an admin now. MaxSem 22:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned non-free image (Image:HermansHermits BestOfTheSixtiesAmazon.jpg)

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Thanks for uploading Image:HermansHermits BestOfTheSixtiesAmazon.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 15:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Micronation Wikiproject

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I've published a proposal to gauge the level of interest in setting up a micronation Wikiproject, which I thought might be of interest to you based on your past contributions. Comments and suggestions are welcome: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Micronations --Gene_poole 01:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'll pass but thanks just the same... the focus of the project seems to be to keep the articles around. ++Lar: t/c 10:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, coach....

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Lar, I would appreciate some feedback. I went to close Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jabir Hasan Muhamed Al Qahtani, and there were 2 keeps, 2 deleted and a merge. While I could have closed it as no-consensus, it seemed to me at the time that there really needed more input, so following the instructions at WP:DELPRO, I elected to relist it for further debate. Since I wasn't closing it, I felt that I wasn't violating process to put my view in the new discussion. However, another admin, User:Cactus.man has raised concern about the {{relist}} process being a valid way to go (his comments are on my talk page), suggesting that the relist template be removed. Would you care to review my actions and comment on whether I used the process correctly, and if not, how I could have done it better? Thanks! AKRadecki 01:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Answered on your talk since most of the discussion was going there. Also I fixed the link to it here (see above in your comment), to get it to be a link you have to use url encoding or else the template invocation swamps the link. ++Lar: t/c 10:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Lar, LTNS :), hope you're well.
I know you don't like unthreaded discussions, but here's me unthreading anyway - what the hell, there's other stuff I want to discuss. This particular issue was flagged up by Geo Swan as an AfD relisting which he asked me to look into. Duly done, I commented to both parties then pondered some more. A bit more digging revealed the {{relist}} template was at the core of the issue. I have absolutely no problems with anything Akradecki did, it was textbook per the instructions at WP:DELPRO (minus the actual moving to the current date log - which I've now fixed).
To extend discussion for further input, rather than a quick close, is absolutely fine and commendable. The problem I see is that it's not a relisting (having never been formally closed), it's an extension of the discussion period. On the other hand, it is a relisting because it gets moved to a new listing date. It's understandable that article creators become aggrieved at rapid "relistings" and percieve POINTY implications, but I feel the guidelines need tightening up a bit to distinguish between genuine article relistings and unclosed AfD extensions.
I'll stick my feeble brain onto the issue in the next few days, probably a new template and a bit of rewording, but any feedback is welcome. I'll drop a line to Akradecki to keep him in the loop.
Now, onto other things. Are you still a regular DYK updater? I see that things have changed somewhat in my recent absence - any handy hints or pointers before I get back to doing my bit would be gratefully received --Cactus.man ✍ 11:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting may indeed be semantically not quite right terminology, given that we also refer to an entirely new nomination in rapid succession (something frowned on) after the real close as a "relist", but it's the term I've seen used since as long as I can remember. If you change it around you'l want to leave scads of notes and redirects or mass confusion may result. That is, if you can come up with a more unambiguous term at all! I wish you well on that but offhand I didn't think of one. As for DYK I've been quite out of the loop of late, and have to do the same as you, read carefully to see what is up, should I decide to plunge in again. ++Lar: t/c 12:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, point taken about the extent of the notification - checking the history of the template, it's been around far longer than I remember. However, there's definitely a semantics problem to be tackled. Bigger thinking cap required :-) --Cactus.man ✍ 13:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck with that! Seems a worthy endeavour, and if you need any feedback once you have a new template and or meme, LMK and I'll be happy to give you some ... best of luck and happy editing meanwhile. ++Lar: t/c 20:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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