Wikipedia:Peer review/Indiggo/archive1

Indiggo

I've listed this article for peer review because I am preparing it for FAN and my FA mentor, User:Gen. Quon, has recommended peer review. Following a suggestion at Peer review/Instructions: "An excellent way to get reviews is to review a few other requests without responses and ask for reviews in return," I'd be delighted to review any article (whether or not it is listed and whether or not it has received a response) in exchange for a review. Drop a note on my talk page. I took Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri from C Class to GA. Let me know how much I can modify your article (sometimes it is easier to make the edit rather than explaining what needs to be done) and I will respect those limits.

Indiggo is about two identical twin sisters. They were born in Romania, released their first album in high school, majored in musical theatre in college, came to the America soon after graduation on green cards for extraordinary artistic ability, became American citizens and are currently performing Off-Broadway. Their 1 hour 32 minute, 25 songs, cast album was released digitally last Friday. Their record label has announced a physical release in a week. The last time they physically released a CD was in 2006 in Germany and it was a single.

A lot of sources are Romanian, which I inherited. I've used Google for translation, which has been adequate for cite checking. Other sources are books, which I purchased, CD liners (ditto), a PDF digital booklet that I got with my iTune purchase and English language internet sources from the New York Times to IMDb. In one case, I only used IMDb for the photo of the movie poster (for the English translation of the Russian title used by the New York Times).

The article was deleted 4 and a half years ago. When there was no consensus at the deletion review, it was re-listed at AfD. An editor found a source that said their German single had spent a few weeks at a low rank on the German chart. So the article was retained. It is still listed as stub-class on three wikiprojects. It would be a blast if an article that was deleted was promoted from stub-class to Featured Article in one step!

"comments or contributions" -- I'm looking for issues I can fix before a FAR. It is enough if you can provide a link to the relevant policy, guideline, MOS section or essay.

"sections needing review" -- "Discography": if you've seen a better way to present the information, e.g. table, please give me a link. I used the standard citation template.

I don't believe there are any major issues. (One purpose of your review would be to spot any issue I've overlooked.) Following my FA mentor's advice, I will also request copy-editing.

I would appreciate advice on additional audio and visual material to add to the article. I took a picture at the first production on September 28, 2017. I believe that makes me the copyright holder and I can give WP the appropriate licenses. I need guidance on claiming fair use for a sample of their music (and also technical help -- one of their songs, "La La La" (the one sampled in Kanye West and Jay-Z's Watch the Throne) is on YouTube. I'd also like to get a fair use exception for a picture of their new album CD.

Thank you for your attention. I hope my long description allows you to make the right choice about reviewing Indiggo. Vyeh (talk) 17:56, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Hey! Codyorb here. I haven't read the article in its entirety yet, but here is some advice I have:

- According to WP:LEADCITE, there should be very few (if any) citations in the lead section of the article. As long as the content has citations present later in the article, there is no need for them in the lead.

@Vyeh:: To second Codyorb, the first thing that stands out to me is that there are footnotes in the lede of the article, which is uniformly against the standard. The idea is that the lede summarizes the key points of the article, and, thus all information in it is cited in the article body itself. I do think the article is well-researched, but that is a key formatting issue that needs to be addressed. Also, I find the opening sentence to be a bit loaded with information to the point of being overwhelming:
Indiggo and Indiggo Twins are Gabriela and Mihaela Modorcea,[1][2] the Romanian-American actresses,[3] dancers,[4] singers,[5] writers[6] and the creators and performers of Wicked Clone The Cinema Musical[7] and its cast album of 25 original songs, running time 1 hour 32 minutes, through Broadway Records.
It is not necessary to provide numbers and runtimes of the artists' works, especially in the first sentence. I will go into a bit more detail as I read through. --Drown Soda (talk) 01:51, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

@Codyorb: @Drown Soda: Thank you for opening the peer review. I have removed all citations from the lead section (should the ones supporting quotes have remained?) and I have removed he numbers and runtimes in the lede. Vyeh (talk) 18:21, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

@Vyeh::I don't agree that a complete removal of citations has improved the lead — in particular, the direct quotations ought to be cited. I think that instead the lead should be stringently pared down and condensed, to four or fewer paragraphs. The off-broadway play could probably be dealt with in a sentence or two, together with its book source and the cast album. The chart statistics and sampling by American rappers could be briefly mentioned, but the quote by Kanye or Jay-Z belongs in the body. The final paragraph belongs in the background section.

Some of the information contained in this article, while indicative of a great deal of effort in research, seems to err on the side of non-notability/violating the privacy of private individuals. In particular, some of their American television appearances and the details of their parents' and brother's occupations and mother's thesis might not warrant mention.

The section quoting from a review of their musical needs to be greatly abbreviated. It would be helpful if multiple reviews were used to give a fuller picture of critical reception.

In the background subsection, the previous versions/stagings of the work are listed most-recent to earliest, and divided into two sentences. It would be better to use one sentence and conventional chronological ordering.

In the music section, wicked clone subsection, the information about their label seems unnecessary.

Other artistic accomplishments, stage subsection: Unless it's really cumbersome, it would be nice to specify: the <insert competition/prize> award-winning volume.

Bottom line: Don't just change the lead by stripping out the citations; instead, take out the unnecessary details which required all the sources. Also, think carefully about whether the level of detail throughout the article is notable or relevant to the subject.

Cheers, Genericusername57 (talk) 02:06, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Actually, tell you what: that mini summary of the project you give above, while of course lacking polish, might serve as a starting point for a greatly abbreviated lead:

 Indiggo is about two identical twin sisters. They were born in Romania, released their first album in high school, majored in musical theatre in college, came to the America soon after graduation on green cards for extraordinary artistic ability, became American citizens and are currently performing Off-Broadway. Their 1 hour 32 minute, 25 songs, cast album was released digitally last Friday. Their record label has announced a physical release in a week. The last time they physically released a CD was in 2006 in Germany and it was a single.

Cheers, Genericusername57 (talk) 02:11, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

@Codyorb: @Drown Soda: Do the quotes in the lead section need to be cited? Thank you. Vyeh (talk) 13:11, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

If the quote is re-used elsewhere in the article, no. If not, it's better citing it than not. It doesn't have to be totally clear of citations. WP:LEADCITE does not explicitly mention what to do. Codyorb (talk) 14:43, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

@Genericusername57: @Codyorb: The point is moot. A GOCE has begun copy-editing and removed all the quotes from the lead section. (IMO an improvement.) Another way to handle the issue of citing quotes in the lead. Vyeh (talk) 15:38, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

@Genericusername57: COGE User:Twofingered Typist has pared down the lead to four paragraphs. The Off-Broadway musical is two sentences including the book source and cast album. The chart statistics and sampling by American rappers are briefly mentioned and the quote by Kanye or Jay-Z removed. Most of the final paragraph has been removed (the first two were moved to the first paragraph). The mother's thesis has been removed. In the "Music" section, "Wicked clone" subsection, the information about their label was removed. I'd like to wait until Codyorb and Drown Soda finish their reviews before addressing your remaining points. Vyeh (talk) 18:56, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

@Vyeh: Hi, I like all of the modifications very much—in particular, I think that the shortened lead summarises the article more effectively, and makes a much stronger case for the significance of the twins. The rest of my suggestions were very minor, and you can feel free to disregard them.

I am still a bit concerned about the award-winning bit, though. I don't speak Romanian, but it looks to me like the article cited is about nominations for the Writers' Union Awards, but the prize itself for dramaturgy went to someone else, Matei Vişniec.

Cheers, Genericusername57 (talk) 19:26, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

@Genericusername57: You're right! I inherited that. I thought my cite check was thorough. I saw the volume listed in the source. I've changed the wording to "award-nominated" for now. Vyeh (talk) 21:14, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

@Genericusername57: After condensing and merging the musical section, I reinserted a couple of direct quotations using an in-line citation and cite. In the merger, the background subsection of the musical was greatly abbreviated to "three showcases and three productions" with six cites. I did list the cites for the previous versions/stagings of the work in conventional chronological order. Vyeh (talk) 20:55, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

@Vyeh: I like those improvements as well. I have one final comment: the line They speak English, French, German and Romanian and sing in seven different languages. appears three times in the article: in the lead, under Romanian childhood, and under Adulthood. I suggest that you remove it from one of the body sections. (Which one depends on when they undertook their language studies, I suppose.) Otherwise, the article looks great to me. Cheers, Genericusername57 (talk) 22:06, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

@Vyeh: I've re-read the article; I don't see anymore major issues in it that could interfere with FAR. Codyorb (talk) 16:05, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

@Genericusername57: Great catch! I added it to the section "Adulthood" along with the sentence about ASCAP membership when I removed the cites from the lead, so those sentences would be supported. I forgot the first sentence was in the section "Romanian childhood." Vyeh (talk) 02:57, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

additional quibbles from Genericusername57

@Vyeh: Hi, I took another look through Indiggo. Honestly, I thought the GOCE editor did a great job, so I don't have all that many suggestions. Here are some extremely nitpicky comments--please feel free to disregard.

Lead:

• They were born in Romania, received visas for extraordinary artistic abilities, became Americans citizens and live in New York City. Were these visas or green cards? Also, it's pretty obvious from context, but this line doesn't explicitly say which country the visas/green cards were from.
• ...and their album Indiggo found commercial success in Germanic territories. I suggest that you name those countries/regions more specifically.

Background: Romanian Childhood:

• The twins were born in 1985[3][4] These sources provide their age in Nov./Dec. 2012, but not their birth year. (They might possibly have been born in mid-late December 1984.)
• in Brașov, Transylvania, Romania.[5] This source includes the line "and who claim Transylvanian roots", but doesn't otherwise address their birthplace.
• and American[15] literature.[16] The link in that last footnote (to 'Mihaela, Violeta, Viziuni teatrale complementare : Cehov şi Gorki') points back to the Wikipedia article itself, to the section Indiggo#”Viziuni_teatrale_complementare”, which doesn't exist.

Adulthood:

• The TIM magazine source (2014): seems to have been substantially copied from this earlier source from 2013 (the section marked Indiggo's Biography). This seems like a self-promotional site, so I would be cautious about using it without further verification.

:edit: Here's a romanian article about their appearance in a music video for Wisin & Yandel's collab with 50 Cent, "Mujeres in the Club": and here's the video. They make a very brief cameo at the 1:15 mark. I suggest swapping out '50 Cent' for 'Wisin & Yandel' (or 'Wisin & Yandel feat. 50 Cent') :Danny Aiello: I couldn't find any secondary sources about their collaboration with him: but I checked his music videos, and they do appear as extras in this one. (They show up in the second half, wearing black leather trench coat getups and dancing around a car.) :New York Knicks: I'd bet money that they participated somehow in one of the remakes of the classic jingle mentioned in this article. I haven't spotted them in the Swizz Beatz version, though, and I can't find the video for the 2008 version. :Lindsay Lohan: I think that I've spotted them: they show up very briefly at around 0:24-0:25 in this video, Everyone Nose (All the Girls Standing in the Line for the Bathroom) by N.E.R.D, walking into a bathroom together wearing matching silver jackets. (The video as a whole is NSFW, but their cameo isn't.) Kanye West and Lindsay Lohan both make cameos in the video as well, but don't appear with the twins. I'm not absolutely sure it's them, though: I couldn't find any secondary sources about it, and their faces aren't visible in the video. Genericusername57 (talk) 14:09, 4 November 2018 (UTC) :Wodka Gorbatschow and Dell Computers: I have watched far too many advertisements for these products and so far come up with nothing. :I was wondering: do you thing it would be better, since all but one of these appearances received no coverage in reliable secondary sources, and the self-written source is somewhat misleading (listing the other famous featurings/cameos, 50 Cent, Kanye and Lohan, instead of the main artists, Wisin & Yandel and N.E.R.D), to omit the detail and just put a line in the adulthood section like 'They were extras in a number of music videos between 2004 and 2009'?

I think, all things considered, that the TIM magazine profile doesn't appear to have the editorial oversight necessary for a reliable BLP source. I suggest that you either remove the information sourced to it, or else reference it to one of the profiles from their website or publicity material directly, to make it immediately clear to readers that the information is from a self-written source.

• ...international music publisher and label Imagem,... I couldn't find any information about Imagem being a label. I think that was an error in the Libertatea article.
• Time Out New York ranked Hip Hop Belly Dance as best-in-class. The Libertatea article says so, but not the Time Out New York article itself.
• They are working on an album with American music manager DAS Communications' David Sonenberg, Peter Zizzo, Rockwilder, DJ Paul Oakenfold, and Swizz Beatz. I suggest that you say that this was announced in 2011, since it's not clear if it's still the case.
• Basing the show on their 500-page bestseller I think in general that with things like 'prize-winning' or 'acclaimed' it's better to provide concrete details of the prize/rankings. I found several self-published/promotional sources that suggest that the bestseller claim is based on a #1 rank in the Barnes & Noble website's art book category, but couldn't find any official source to verify the ranking.
• Similarly, about the 500 pages: is it necessary that the reader know the page count? Is this something which secondary sources remark upon? Can it be readily verified? (Probably yes for the last, but I'm not sure of the answer to the others.)
• and tracks Mihaela, whose desire to be human and loved takes her to modern day New York City; and Gabriela, who ventures through time and space to return her sister to her vampiric heritage This passage is too close a paraphrase of the synopsis on the show website, "The original storyline tracks the two: Mihaela, whose desire to be human and loved takes her to the Big Apple; and Gabriela, who ventures through time and space to return her sister to her vampiric heritage."
• Is there a reason to list Wicked Clone first in the music section? I would expect instead for the different subsections to be arranged in roughly chronological order, starting with their 2000 debut album.
• On March 10, Sony BMG Music Entertainment, Ariola, released the pop/rock CD single "Be My Boyfriend",[49] which entered the German charts.[50] I think that just saying 'Ariola' would accurately reflect the second source. (Or 'Ariola, a subsidiary label of Sony BMG,...') Do you think it would be worth mentioning the b-side to the single, "I'm Coming", in the discography?
• I agree with the GOCE editor that Artico Dore is a wikipedia mirror.
• Indiggo's first Europe-wide single, "Hip Hop Jam," (BROS Music, 2003), a song with Cuban influences[56] produced by David Brandes, entered the German charts.[57] I don't know much at all about music rankings, but I think it's typical to add "...peaking at <some number>", whatever their highest chart rank was.
• In the publications and bibliography, I suggest that you not have the title link to worldcat if you also provide a linked oclc number.
• I think that the amazon, barnes and noble, and itunes links in the publications and bibliography sections should all be removed/replaced with links to non-commercial sites.
• Do you happen to know in what year the sisters came to the U.S? One of the 2007 Eurovision sources seems to suggest that they were already living in New York at that time, but it isn't stated in the personal life section.
• Have you yourself read the mother's book listed in the sources (Modorcea, Violeta (2009), Contractul sau Cum am devenit vampiri [The contract or How we became vampires : Dracula's girls'/Indiggo twins' show] (in Romanian and English), Craiova, Romania: Sim Art (Aius), OCLC 895468656, retrieved September 11, 2018), which you also use as a ref for the fact that she's a writer? I ask because the oclc entry shows that only one library, in Romania, holds the book, and internet searches for the isbn and title return only this article and wikipedia mirrors.
• Did Lovestruck reach the semifinals of the Romanian song selection for the Eurovision contest, or of Eurovision itself?
• I think that's all I have for comments: I think the prose is clear and grammatical, if not particularly ornate. (To me, that's a virtue--I think it's better to avoid unnecessary periphrasis in writing. I didn't have to break out my grammar manuals or diagram any sentences to understand the article.) Cheers, Genericusername57 (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2018 (UTC)