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October 11

"The white one"

Who is the white one in myth? In Egypt,: Krauss^[1] says "For White One as a synonym for the eastern eye of Horus, cf the Hymns to the Diadem, above." Adolf Erman 1911 gives only one result for "der Weiße". Krauss didn't mention which of the 600-some pages. Any help? (And where does Hathi get off restricting downloads of materials marked public domain?) Temerarius (talk) 03:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ Steele, John M.; Imhausen, Annette (2002). Under One Sky. Münster: Ugarit. p. 193. ISBN 3-934628-26-5.

Temerarius (talk) 03:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Hedjet. 196.50.199.218 (talk) 05:38, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see it. Now what?

Temerarius (talk) 19:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, depending on the context of the article you're working on, the next step is to reframe your question from Who is the white one in myth? to "What is the White One in ancient Egyptian tradition?"

If that step is taken, then Hedjet is your answer. If your context does not allow for that interpretation, perhaps more information would help people zero in on an aswer that meets your requirements. Folly Mox (talk) 19:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Was their east the same as our east?

Temerarius (talk) 17:01, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with ancient Egyptian cartography and orienteering. Are you consulting documents in the original Egyptian? I'd imagine translators would likely interpret this correctly, unless like me they suffer directional dyslexia.

I speculate that Egyptians may have used "East" to refer to other cultures that were more northerly / northeasterly than strictly East, which I base on no research whatsoever.

Would you be willing to share the context for these questions? You done got me curious. Folly Mox (talk) 10:44, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually a few things, in part I'm wondering if there's a lunar or solar quality to the whtite one. It sounds like the moon, but here pages 228-9 make me think dawn < radiate/radiant might be the source meaning.

Temerarius (talk) 02:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found a page about a tomb which has the phrase "the southern (theologically east) wall". Card Zero (talk) 22:59, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It being public domain means that if you get your hands on it, then you can freely redistribute it. It doesn't mean that anyone else is obliged to give it to you... AnonMoos (talk) 14:08, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just came across a minor "white one" reference in Petrie's Anhas el Medineh. Next to a more cross-culturally familiar title "lady of heaven." https://i.postimg.cc/VNsTJcLM/image.png

Temerarius (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

0 with Roman numerals

In the Sola Busca tarot, the Fool has number 0 alongside the other trumps with Roman numerals. The existence of such a combination is not mentioned in Roman numerals#Zero. Are there other examples? When did this first occur, as far as we know? --KnightMove (talk) 12:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

0 – Mato
I – Panfilio
II – Postumio
III – Lenpio

KnightMove (talk) 12:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KnightMove: Also see The Fool (tarot card). SerialNumber54129 13:02, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ancient Romans didn't really have a concept of zero as a numerical digit in ordinary reckoning (though of course they had several words meaning "nothing"), and a zero numerical digit symbol would not have been needed or useful when writing positive numbers with Roman numerals. The closest they had to a positional notation system was sexagesimal (base-60) and was mainly used by astronomers. The sexagesimal system had a limited internal zero (used when flanked by other numbers on both sides, to indicate an empty place). AnonMoos (talk) 14:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See 0#Transmission to Europe. Arabic numerals including 0 were introduced to Western Europe early in the 13th century, so any time from then on an individual using Roman numerals (and they are of course still in active use today) might have found it convenient to combine 0 with them. Some may have known of classical Greek use of omicron (ο) when working with Babylonian texts that had a 'placeholder' zero symbol, and Hipparchus, Ptolemy and other astronomers' use of the Hellenistic zero (see 0#Classical antiquity) (which the Romans failed to adopt into Roman numerals) around 150 CE (mentioned in the 0 article): I can't reproduce it here, but it comprised a long 'overline' above a tiny circle. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 20:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the magic of unicode: 𐆊, U+1018A GREEK ZERO SIGN. This is also at the top of the article Greek Numerals. Card Zero (talk) 20:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amusingly, that (like several other characters in the article) doesn't render on my PC: presumably I lack the font. No matter, because I don't myself need to. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 04:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like this:

, a small circle with a long overbar. --Lambiam 09:08, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first font I install on any new computer is Unifont for precisely this kind of purpose. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that information. Maybe someone knows a specific example of "any time from then on an individual using Roman numerals (and they are of course still in active use today) might have found it convenient to combine 0 with them".? --KnightMove (talk) 16:19, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It may be that both (a) this late 15th century tarot is actually the first such example, and (b) you are the first person to have wondered about this point. I have not been able to find any work mentioning it; probably the expertise of a scholar specialising in Mediaeval MSS is needed.

For tangential interest, I have while searching encountered a 52-page work The Elements of abbreviation in medieval Latin paleography by Adriano Cappelli, translated by David Heiman & Richard Kay, University of Kansas Libraries 1982 (googling the title gives access to downloadable pdfs). It doesn't address this particular question, but may be of interest nonetheless. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 19:42, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If a modern example is of use to you, not the earliest (it seems you asked for both?), see Shepherd Gate Clock. Card Zero (talk) 22:11, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting, thank you both! --KnightMove (talk) 08:55, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the existence of such examples was worth to be added to the article. --KnightMove (talk) 15:07, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not clear, though, that the creator of the deck thought of his use of the mark "0" as being a Roman numeral. Rather, I think it quite plausible that the creator, lacking a Roman numeral for zero, decided to use a large Arabic numeral instead. --Lambiam 18:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[l640-1] Steele, John M.; Imhausen, Annette (2002). Under One Sky. Münster: Ugarit. p. 193. ISBN 3-934628-26-5.

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