Talk:Antoine Ephrem Cartier

Genealogy and family line section

"... whose father is Allaine Cartier (1509-1574); whose father is Raoulette Cartier (1489-1562); whose father is Jacques Cartier (1491-1557"

What clued me in to this issue wasn't the name Raoulette, but rather the dates. Raoulette's father is Jacques Cartier, born two years after him (her?) Incidentally, there is also no closing parenthesis after Jacques Cartier's dates of birth and death. I'm going to edit that myself, since I could hardly get it wrong. 70.50.115.248 (talk) 07:40, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Michel Potier (talk) 22:40, 30 December 2012 (UTC) All this genealogy section is wrong, I've read the document "Genealogy Cartier" written by Morgan Cartier, related in this article, it's a nice legend, but not truth. No relation can be established between Jacques Cartier, and Guillaume Cartier who migrated to Quebec.

Guillaume Cartier is related by Morgan Cartier being a grandson of Claude Cartier and Yvonne, born at St-Géréon on 30 April 1586... Yes, really, Claude is born here but on 30 April 1677 (91 years later !), his wife is Jeanne, sometimes called Yvonne, Lebrun, and he is a Guillaume's cousin (their nearest ancestors are Jean Cartier and Catherine Charon).

The oldest ancesters identified for Guillaume are Jean Cartier (+3 Jan 1619, Drain) and Catherine Charon. Jean is probably son of Jean Cartier and Jeanne Jagou but I can't actually justify it. Jean Cartier and Catherine Charon have 3 known children : - Jean (+21 May 1629 Drain) married (3 Nov 1610 Drain) with Brice Cesbron - Olivier married (19 Jan 1617 Drain) with Mathurine Petiteau - Julien married (ca 1640) with Françoise Bourdin - it seems there's a great difference between Julien and his brothers, but the filiation is certain.

Julien and Françoise Bourdin have 12 children, they did not migrate to Canada, like related by Morgan Cartier, Julien was miller at Drain, probably in the village of "les Brevets".

Their son Guillaume, born at Drain on 19 Feb 1647, first married with Perrine Morineau (29 Oct 1680 Barbechat), died 24 Dec 1682. He has a son Louis, born 15 Nov 1681 at la Chapelle Basse-Mer. After death of Perrine, Guillaume is engaged as a miller at Neuville near Québec, but his son Louis stayed in France and then had a descendance.

For Cartier descendance, see http://gw.geneanet.org/guilcartier

Michel Potier, french genealogist from les Cousins de la Marquise

• Michel Potier,

Appreciate your input. Wikipedia articles are based on secondary sources (i.e. printed source books). They are NOT based on primary sources (census and statictics records). Your website address of "geneanet.org" is primary source. It so happens, that your address you furnished can NOT be seen as apparently it requires a User Name and a Password. Even IF it could be seen, it is NOT a reference that can be used in Wikipedia. Is this information you supplied in an English text book someplace?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:41, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

2.1.11.74 (talk) 09:36, 2 January 2013 (UTC) Sorry, the address is wrong, it was http://gw.geneanet.org/guillcartier, it's a free access genealogy

There is no published source from this genealogy, but it's the result of many months of searches (personal and from associations), all dates and places have been verified. I discovered recently that a Cartier line issued from Guillaume said they were descendants of Jacques Cartier, that's not true, so I think that a serious Encyclopedia like Wikipedia can't accept that. Michel Potier (talk) 11:38, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• Michel Potier,

Appreciate your thoughts and input. As Wikipedia editors we have to go by the rules. We have to reference to published sources. Your thoughts of it's the result of many months of searches (personal and from associations) is considered original research and is NOT allowed as a reference for an article. However IF someday you can show a published source for what you say, then that can be used as a reference. The book "Genealogy Cartier" written by Morgan Cartier is a published source of 1957, that you said you have in Nantes, France - so it must be availabe nearly worldwide. On page 1 of this published book is a list of sources that Morgan Cartier used, many from Chief Archivists of various cities of France including Nantes. There is also sources that Morgan used from New York, Washington D.C., Paris, Montreal and Quebec, Canada. Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources... Your thoughts of its not true and your interpretations of the primary sources would be considered "novel interpretations of primary sources" so can NOT be used as a reference for the article. When you find a published source for this genealogy you interpret, let me know and we will go from there.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:39, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• OK, if you think that... but actually, published sources are oftently Internet, and I don't understand why a descendance on the Web can't be considered as a published source, all data can by verified in the archive websites in France (essentially from Maine-et-Loire and Loire-Atlantique)

But so, all this article is based on « Cartier Genealogy » and I can say there are a lot of errors in the document... First, Morgan Cartier doesn't write that Guillaume is a Jacques Cartier's descendant, but they have common ancestors Jean Cartier and Guillemette Baudouin ! Jacques Cartier is their grandson, by Jacques Jamet. Guillaume Cartier would be a descendant of Etienne, Jacques Jamet's brother

So, the genealogy edicted by Morgan Cartier is : Jean Cartier (1428-1488) x Guillemette Baudouin, Etienne Cartier (1467-1549) x Perrine Nouvelle, Raoulette Cartier (1489-1562) x Marie-Anne Gourge, Allaine Cartier (1509-1574) x Jehanne, François Cartier (1542-1575) x Marguerite Cuff, Jehan Cartier (1563-1598) x Jehanne Rouault, Claude Cartier (1586-1642) x Yvonne, Julien Cartier (1618-1665) x Françoise Burdain, Guillaume Cartier (1647-1719) x Etiennette Garnier

From Jean to Jehan, I don't know this line, but it's curious, Raoulette and Allaine are women's firstnames, so I have doubts about that.

Claude Cartier : Morgan Cartier says « Claude was born on 30 April 1586 at Sainct Gereon in the hunting lodge of his father... He married Yvonne in 1616... he decided to join a venture of manufacturing in Nantes and built a second home in the nearby village of Dresnec... he and his wife Yvonne divided their time between St-Malo and Dresnec... Dresnec, where Claude had built another home, was in the Archibishop of Nantes and in the home there in 1618 was born Julien and four years later Jacques was born in St-Malo... He died in 1642, an honorable gentleman of France, in the hunting lodge at Saint-Gereon where he was born »

Really, Claude Cartier is born on 30 April 1677 at Saint-Géréon, dead 30 December 1721 at St-Géréon, he married Jeanne Lebrun on 7 February 1695 at St-Géréon (she's sometimes called Yvonne). His parents are Maurille Cartier and Guillemine Clémenceau.

Dresnec, actually le Drennec, is not near Nantes but near Brest (300km between the two towns), and there's no city or village of this name around Nantes.

Julien Cartier : Morgan Cartier says « Julian was the eldest son of Claude being born at Dresnec near Nantes in 1618. In 1638, at the age of 20, he married Françoise Burdain who was born and baptised in Nantes and at that time Julian was in the French navy... Leaving his ancestral home and with his bride Françoise he sailed from St-Malo in 1649 for New France which had been discovered by his cousin Jacques.... Guillaume, the only child of Julian and Françoise, was born in 1653 and baptised in the tiny church. Julian did not live to see the fruition of his plans as he never returns from an expedition in 1665 and presumably was killed by Indians »

Really, we don't know when Julien was born, and married, but he is dead on 22 January 1660 at Drain, married about 1640 with Françoise Bourdin, His parents are Jean and Catherine Charon. He has never been a sailor, but lived as a miller at Drain, and he never crossed the seas. 12 children have been identified, all born at Drain between 1642 and 1659.

Guillaume Cartier : Morgan Cartier says « Guillaume was born at Pointe-aux-Trembles in 1653 and baptised in the settlement church... On 18 January 1685 Guillaume, now age 32, married Estiennette Garnier who was born in Pointe aux Trembles 14 April 1666... »

Really, Guillaume is born on 19 February 1647 at Drain, 4th child of Julien and Françoise Bourdin. Married first with Perrine Morineau at Barbechat, depending from la Chapelle Basse-Mer, on 29 October 1680, he has a child Louis baptised at la Chapelle Basse-Mer on 15 November 1681. Perrine Morineau died on 24 December 1682 at Barbechat. Then, Guillaume emigrated to Québec as a miller.

But Louis didn't follow his father and became a miller at le Cellier, he married Julienne Allard on 22 May 1708 at le Cellier and had descendance in France.

The second marriage, and descendance with Etiennette Garnier are good.--Michel Potier (talk) 16:02, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if it can by considered as a second source document, but the file Origine is the official reference for migrants from France to Canada, and Guillaume Cartier's record is very explicit, see http://www.fichierorigine.com/detail.php?numero=240730, sorry, it's in french, but there's no reference about Guillaume Cartier in english.Michel Potier (talk) 18:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• Michel Potier,

I will try to respond to your reply above. I do know that United States census is considered a primary source and can NOT be used as an article reference. The Origin File of William Cartier (Guillame) looks to me very similar to a U.S. "census record" and would therefore be considered a primary source - and could NOT be used as a reference source. The same information should be in a book written by ANOTHER person other than the Quebec Federation of Genealogical Societies of French Genealogy Federation. In any case, it shows the FIRST WIFE of Guillaume Cartier as Perrine Morineau La Chapelle-Basse-Mer. I do NOT see any children by the name "Guillame II". So perhaps Guillame married again later (Etiennette Garnier?) and had a son "Guillame II" (1693-1742). "Guillame Sr" would have been 40 years old when "Guillame II" was born. It looks like to me that "Guillame Sr" and "Perrine Morineau La Chapelle-Basse-Mer" had ONLY 1 child = Louis La Chapelle-Basse-Mer on 15-12-1681. She then died in Barbechat (44008) on 24-12-1682. Guessing on this, but perhaps from child birth of second second child (unknown name). It looks like it is correct that his paternal grandfather is Jean Cartier as I wrote in the Wikipedia article. I see a slight difference that the Index page of Morgan's book "GENEALOGY - Cartier" (1957) shows "Guillaume Sr" birth of 1653, where your Origin File shows it as 1647. I don't know why the 6 year difference. Morgan's book "GENEALOGY - Cartier" (1957) on page 30 talks of "Julian Cartier" as being the first Canadian ("New France") citizen. Is there something in the Wikipedia article you feel is wrong and not properly referenced? I am mostly going by Morgan's book "GENEALOGY - Cartier" (1957). Page 12 says: ...Jacques add to the fame of the family through his trips of exploration and his discovery of Canada. What are your main concerns?

According to page 15, Jacques in the spring of 1536 intended to return to France from Canada. He planted a wooden crossbar on the shore of the Saint Lawrence at the indian village of Stadaconne on May 3 reading: "Francis I by the grace of God King of the French, is Sovereign." Jacque Cartier had just claimed all of Canada for France.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 23:42, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Doug,

Morgan Cartier considers that the pioneer was Julien, Guillaume's father, That's false, all serious genealogy references mention Guillaume as the first migrant, sailing on the boat "l'Entreprenant" in 1684 (http://www.famillescartier.org/textes/ACA%206%20les%20premiers%20anc%EAtres%20Cartier.htm), and engaged by Lord Dupont de Neuville as a miller.

So, except the name of his parents, cited in his marriage act, all the genealogy before Guillaume, described by Morgan Cartier is fantaisist, and would not be used as an encyclopedic source.

Perhaps, you don't want use those informations, but please, suppress this genealogy section in this article, it injuries the real searchers !--Michel Potier (talk) 12:10, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Michel,

According to Morgan Cartier's 1957 book (a secondary source) on page 30 (Chapter 10 - Julian Cartier) he says Julian with his wife Francoise sailed from Ste Malo in 1649 to relocate to Canada (New France). The ship (no name) sailed into the St. Lawrence river and landed in Quebec in 1649. The source you provide directly above gives a list of 10 Cartier ancestors that came to Canada between 1657 and 1750 (2 women and 8 men). It shows Helen Cartier being the earliest to arrive in Canada in 1657. It shows Guillaume (1647-1719) arriving in Canada on the ship "The Undertaking" in 1684. There were 5 Cartiers that arrived in Canada BEFORE Guillaume; being Helen (1657), Joseph dit Larose (1665), Mary (1670), Paul (1673), and Peter (1675).

I can not suppress the genealogy section in the article, since it is correctly referenced. On page 1 of Morgan's book is a list of archivists where he obtained the information. Morgan explains on the previous page that he researched this in a 6 month trip to France and several trips made to Canada in 1947.

So unless you can come up with additional sources, then the article will have to stay the way it is. You say all serious genealogy references mention Guillaume as the first migrant. Which other serious genealogy references mention this?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:31, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Doug

Guillaume Cartier, as ancestor of Morgan Cartier, is explicitly this born at Drain in 1647, migrating to Canada in 1684, not an other.

Perhaps, there was an unknown Julien Cartier that came earlier and explorated Canada, I don't think so, but in any case, he can't be Guillaume's father. For our Guillaume, I have all acts (birth, marriages, death of his father, his great-father, his brothers and sisters acts and so...), they're all proofs that this genealogy is false, how can you consider your "secondary" source is better than original documents, for me, it's incomprehensive ?

In 1649, Julien and his wife Françoise Bourdin were living at Drain, not in Quebec, where they never sailed.

I've verified all dates and places in Morgan Cartier's book that could agree with his story, they are all false, and probably all archivists cited in the document should turn in their coffin if they read this version, it's sure they couln't give those informations !

All genealogists from Quebec agree with Guillaume Cartier, born in 1647 and arrived in 1684. I don't know why, perhaps because of this tale called "Cartier Genealogy", but all Cartier living in USA don't accept him, and much of them are Guillaume's descendants, it's a big historical error, and it must be corrected.

But perhaps, you're a Guillaume Cartier's descendant?--Michel Potier (talk) 17:34, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Michel,

I am NOT related to the Cartiers in any way! I just write a lot of Wikipedia articles - and pretty much know the rules involved. I did NOT help Morgan write his 1957 book. All I know is that it is a seconday source published book. It shows where Morgan got his references on page 1. If Morgan's book is "a big historical error", then you will have to talk that over with Morgan's decendants.

You say all serious genealogy references mention Guillaume as the first migrant. Which other "serious genealogy references" mention this?

http://www.famillescartier.org/textes/ACA%206%20les%20premiers%20anc%EAtres%20Cartier.htm = There were 5 Cartiers that arrived in Canada BEFORE Guillaume; being Helen (1657), Joseph dit Larose (1665), Mary (1670), Paul (1673), and Peter (1675).

The Wikipedia rules say that an article must have a reference from a seconday source, published source. Your sources you talk about are primary sources and can NOT be used for references. Example: Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources. Your historical documents write of the "acts" (diary) of the time period of births, marriages, death of Guillaume's father, his great-father and "acts" of Guillaume's brothers and sisters. Your interpretation of this information can NOT be accepted as a Wikipedia reference source. Your interpretation is considered Original Research and could be wrong. Your documents of "acts" you speak of are primary sources and can NOT be used as a reference in this article. You need seconday sources (i.e. published book) in order to change the Wikipedia article.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:43, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Doug,

It seems it will be impossible to convince you, perhaps I'm stupid, but I don't understand why the descendance Cartier published at Geneanet can't be considered as a secondary source, why "Fichier Origine" can't be considered as a serious genealogic reference, why the association "Famille Cartier d'Amérique" would not be credible, and why Websites like http://www.nosorigines.qc.ca, http://http://genealogiequebec.info, http://www.francogene.com all accredite my these.

So, probably, I'll write my own Wikipedia article about Guillaume Cartier, and I think there will be no problem to find the sources to accredite it.

But when you write "Jacques Cartier is the 12th great-grandfather of Antoine Ephrem Cartier.", you're false, Morgan Cartier did not write that, and so, Jacques Cartier had no children, so you could a minima correct this. In this book, Raoulette would be a cousin of Jacques Cartier, not his son (Raoulette is born in 1489, Jacques in 1491). So, your article is not conform to your source.--Michel Potier (talk) 20:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Michel,

You are correct - Morgan Cartier did NOT write Jacques Cartier is the 12th great-grandfather of Antoine Ephrem Cartier. The reference link where I got that is now dead, so I can not show the source where I got the information. I therefore have taken out that line from the article.

Good idea! Go ahead and write your own Wikipedia article about Guillaume Cartier. Anybody can write up articles for Wikipedia. The French Wikipedia is here. OR you can write it up in the English Wikipedia. It sounds like you have some good references. I highly recommend you do this. This will give you experience in writing up Wikipedia articles. Since French is your native language I recommend first you write it up in the French Wikipedia, THEN the English Wikipedia. An article you write up then will show me YOUR points you are trying to make about Guillaume Cartier. I do NOT know any French, so can NOT help - however there is access to "Help" on Wikipedia's main page. Good Luck!!--Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

FYI - Here is a French Wikipedia article on Jacques Cartier. This will give you an idea how an article should be written. Don't forget to reference your items. Your websites you mentioned just above, at a quick glance, look like good references to use. They would probably be good secondary sources for your new articles on the Cartiers.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 22:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you have an answer for, You say all serious genealogy references mention Guillaume as the first migrant. Which other "serious genealogy references" mention this? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 22:12, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

FYI - You must show notibility first before a Wikipedia article will be accepted, otherwise your article will be deleted. IF Guillaume Cartier was the first Canadian citizen from France, that would be "notibility" and your article will be accepted. Make sure you have several reference sources (secondary sources) to show this! You can NOT use "primary sources". Just giving you hints for your new Wikipedia article. Good luck!--Doug Coldwell (talk) 22:29, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Three Rivers City?

This should be 'Trois Rivieres', should it not? Names are generally not translated, are they? 76.10.141.111 (talk) 10:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! You are correct. Changed to the French name. I think I have it correct, however if you can improve further please feel free to do so.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Copyright contributor investigation and Good article reassessment

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