Talk:June 1941 uprising in eastern Herzegovina

Radojica Perišić

According to multiple sources one of the organizers and most important commanders of rebel forces during this rebelion was Radojica Perišić.

• Karchmar, Lucien (1973). Draz̆a Mihailović and the Rise of the C̆etnik Movement, 1941-1942. Department of History, Stanford University. p. 446. In eastern Herzegovina, the Ustase began to put the plan into operation at the end of May. ... On June 6, Radojica Perisic, the priest of Kazanci, led his villagers against the local gendarmes.

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:55, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Multiple other sources emphasize important role of another leader of the rebel forces, Milorad Popović.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:22, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

You should add this material to the article if you have a reliable source for the latter. I will tidy up any citation issues or grammar problems. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:23, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Other rebel leaders

It seems that the issue this article has with rebel leaders is probably not related only to Perišić. I found a useful source Savo Skoko ISTORIJA 20. VEKA 1/2004, pp: 157-179 in which the author presents detailed list of leaders of uprising (page 170) (quote= Ipak, valja reći da su se već u samom početku Junskog ustanka neki ljudi eksponirali kao najistaknutije vođe ushanka: u Nevesinju Petar Samardžić, Obren Ivković, Krsto Đerić i Dušan Brstina, a u Gacku pop Radojica Perišić i gardijski poručnik Milorad Popović. ). None of them is presented in the infobox as rebel leader.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:47, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

When this uprising began?

The article presents only 23 June as date of the beginning of the uprising. This date is based on the pro-Communist POV, as explained by historian Mandić in this interview. The communist historiography intentionally ignored pre-22 June rebels in Herzegovina and Sanski Most because they occured in the period of collaboration between communists and Fascist, so it would contradict the communist narrative about rebels being led by communists.

Multiple sources present different dates of the beginning of the uprising:

• Letopis Matice srpske. U Srpskoj narodnoj zadružnoj štampariji. 2000. p. 499. Након почетка усташких покоља 2. јуна 1941, свега дан потом почиње неорганизован народни отпор. ... Устанак су почели војници без старешина, које су тек потом бирали.
• Književnost. Prosveta. 2004. ... већ у виштомнa Историји великог отаџбинског рата 1941-1945 написаше да је устанак у Херцеговини почео 3. јуна
• Književnost. Prosveta. 2004. p. 7. Да је овај Устанак почео 6. а не 7. јуна, зна се и по томе што се први партизански батаљон, који је настао у Гацку крајем 1941. године, звао Батаљон 6. јун
• Нова зора. СПКД "Просвјета", Одбори у Билећи и Гацку. 2006. p. 439. „устанак је букнуо баш у овом крају" и до првих борби са усташком влашћу дошло је на Степену 6. јуна 1941.
• http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/reportaze/aktuelno.293.html:610805-Prva-puska-hercegovacka - Historian Petar Mandić refers to this uprising as Sixthjune Uprising ( U knjizi "Junski ustanak Srba u Hercegovini 1941" on navodi da je KPJ nastojala da se predstavi kao jedini inspirator narodnog otpora i šestojunski ustanak prećutkivala, jer u njemu nije imala neposrednu ulogu.)
• https://www.herceg.tv/drustvo/3521/dan-za-istoriju-6-jun-1941-hercegovci-zapoceli-prvi-ustanak-u-porobljenoj-evropi Gacko municipality proclaimed 6 June as their holiday in honor of the beginning of the uprising and held public ceremonies on 6 June for decades, as the Day of Gacko which may be included in eventually newly created Legacy section
• Ekmečić, Milorad (2002). Дијалог прошлости и садашњости: зборник радова. Службени лист СРЈ. p. 391. Због тога је немогуће тачно одредити када је почео устанак у Херцеговини 1941. Било је простора са више села где хрватске власти и окупациона војска никада нису дошле.

It is necessary to respect WP:NPOV and present information about different views of communist and noncommunist historiography regarding the date of the beginning of the uprising.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:52, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

For starters, Sanski Most is not in Herzegovina, so how would anything that happened there be within scope of this article? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:21, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

In case you missed this, Antidiskriminator, please explain how a revolt in Sanski Most has anything to do with the scope of this article, which is the revolt in eastern Herzegovina. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:01, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I think I gave a fairly clear explanation that communist historiography intentionally ignored all pre-22 June rebels, including the uprising in Sanski Most and also uprising in Herzegovina (which is the topic of this article). I also explaned why they did it. I don't really have much to add to that now. You are of course free to disagree, but I don't think you should expect me to be now somehow obliged to keep discussing this with you for as long as you are dissatisfied with it. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:10, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

How many of the above quotes relate to the Sanski Most uprising? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:13, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

For clarity, I am happy to discuss the above, just as soon as you explain how many of the above quotes are talking about the revolt in Sanski Most. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• I found a useful source Savo Skoko ISTORIJA 20. VEKA 1/2004, pp: 157-179 in which the author presents his opinion (with multiple sources that back it up) that organized uprising started only on 24 July, while all earlier conflicts since 3 June were not an uprising but only resistance to murderous actions of Ustaše.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Answer my questions about the Sanski Most-related material and let’s resolve that first. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:32, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Not only Mijo Babić, but also Pospišil and Pogorelec?

Besides the issue related to Mijo Babić (explained in this section) the other two main Ustaše assasins on King Aleksandar were also killed during this uprising, Pospišil and Pogorelec:

• Dedijer, Vladimir; Miletić, Antun (1989). Proterivanje Srba sa ognjišta 1941-1944: svedočanstva. Prosveta. p. 342. Došlo je do krvavih borbi u kojoj su poginuli zloglasni Mijo Babić (Mijo Kralj) i Antun Pogorelac, atentatori na bl. poč. Kralja Aleksandra, oficiri ustaške milicije.
• Istorija Radnickog Pokreta. 1965. p. 118. Pošto su imale 4 mrtva (među njima i ustaški emigrant Zvonko Pospišil) 185 i 4 ranjene, ustaše su odstupile prema Avtovcu i Gacku. Kod Pospišila nađena je mašinka (ustaše su svu četvoricu poginulih ostavile na položaju) i isprave na osnovu kojih je identifikovan.
• Bilten. Udruźenja. 1979. p. 25. Из докумената нађених код тог усташе,сазнало се да је то био Звонимир Поспишил.
• genocida, Muzej žrtava; zadruga, Srpska književna; veku, Odbor SANU za sakupljanje građe o genocidu protiv srpskog naroda i drugih naroda Jugoslavije u XX (1995). Genocid nad Srbima u II svetskom ratu. Muzej žrtava genocida i Srpska književna zadruga. ...у првом окрша]у погинуло неколико усташа меЬу ко]има и емигрант Звонимир Поспишил, ]едан од атентатора на краља Александра Карађорђевића

The article does not mention any of them, which means that it does not fully addresses the main aspects of the topic, provided that sources I presented above are correct.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

You should add them then. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:57, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll add that your claim that the omission of these two individuals undermines the comprehensiveness of the article is utter nonsense. These are two bit players, notable for something other than their role and death in this uprising. Your idea of what is a main aspect of this topic and the level of detail is necessary to make an article comprehensive is seriously faulty. Nevertheless, I would not oppose their inclusion, so go ahead if you wish. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

The title of this section is Not only Mijo Babić, but also Pospišil and Pogorelec. No doubt that Mijo Babić is most important, which is the reason I mentioned him first, both in the title of this section and in the sentence. The central point of my arguments on this talkpage is that this article omitted a long list of people, including Mijo Babić, Radojica Perišić, Zvonimir Pospišil, Antun Pogorelec.... Your driving attention to two least important persons is fallacious avoiding the issue. You used the same fallacy in the discussion about when this uprising began drawing attention to Sanski Most instead to Eastern Herzegovina which was the central point. Using fallacies to avoid the issue is not constructive, especially if you are responsible for creation of the issues. That is one of the reasons why I will try to involve more editors in this discussion before I continue my participation in it. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:46, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

You always avoid any issue I raise. Your avoidance of my question about Sanski Most is yet another example of that. Why did you even raise Sanski Most except to try to bolster your argument with irrelevant information? I have asked you valid questions about the Sanski Most issue, but you refuse to answer them. We cannot move ahead regarding the date the uprising began until we sort out how much of the material you are relying on refers to Sanski Most (and is therefore irrelevant here). Once we have sorted that out, I am happy to discuss the issue of when the uprising began. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I am afraid that the list of important persons omitted in this article is longer than I thought. Before I involve more editors in this discussion I will point to another important Ustaše officer who participated in this event, but not mentioned in the article. Rafael Boban:

Мирковић, Јован (2005). Genocid u 20. veku na prostorima jugoslovenskih zemalja: zbornik radova sa naučnog skupa, Beograd, 22-23. april 2003. Музеј жртава геноцида. p. 196. ISBN 978-86-906329-1-6. У Столац и Берковиће дошли су најближи сарадници Павелића: Мијо Бабић, Рафаел Бобан, Антун Зличарић и Херман Тогонал да се договоре о гушењу устанка у источној Херцеговини и потпуном уништењу српског становништва

Strugar, Vlado (1997). Drugi svjetski rat--50 godina kasnije: radovi sa naučnog skupa, Podgorica, 20-22. septembar 1996. Crnogorska akademija nauka i umjetnosti. p. 709. ISBN 978-86-7215-089-6. ...пристигла је у помоћ група усташких официра са "поглавним побочником" Мијом Бабићем. У тој групи налазилу су се још и Антон Подгорелац, „почасни припадник" поглавникове бојпе и поручник Рафаел Бобан, натпоручник Анте Перковић, Крешо Тоногал итд...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:33, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Once again you completely ignore what I ask and again have failed to edit the article, despite the fact I have expressed no opposition to its inclusion, and despite the fact that you have added this information to other articles. What is stopping you doing so here? This is tendentious behaviour, and closely reflects your behaviour on the talk page of the Djurisic article, for which, I might remind you, you received a well-deserved TBAN. Just so we are crystal clear, I have no opposition whatever to you adding this information to the article. I will fix any citation issues and grammar. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I already explained multiple times that I do not have enough knowledge of English language to edit articles with FA status. I explained the issue, presented multiple sources to support it and I put this tag hoping that somebody who does will resolve the issue. That is more than constructive. If a quality editor puts a tag on one of my articles I will try my hardest to take away the reason for their discontent. If you do not want to do it that is completely ok, I put the tag to attract somebody who might want to do it. This is exactly the purpose of this tag: to give a visual hint to readers of talk page items that a topic contains important unresolved issues, most commonly an action or change that has been agreed to by consensus but not yet actually dealt with. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:47, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Not likely, I'm not taking responsibility for your likely dubious interpretation of sources only you have access to. If I made the edits, they would then be attributed to me, and I would be responsible for any errors introduced. And it is highly unlikely any other editor will either, so your tag is pointless. You are responsible for your own edits, not me, and I don't work for you. Your English is good enough to make points on the talk page, so it is good enough to make edits. As I have said many times, about this and other talk page comments of yours that I agree with, if you make the edits, I will fix your grammar and any citation tweaks required AFTER you have made the edits. This behaviour is highly passive aggressive, a trait in your behaviour recently observed by Drmies. Either make the edits or drop it. I have removed the tag, as no-one is going to resolve it except you, and you refuse to do so. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:38, 11 May 2020 (UTC)