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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 00:35, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Kelly bag

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Green Kelly bag

  • ... that it takes 18 to 25 hours to create one Kelly bag (pictured), a saddle carrier that became a high-priced status symbol when the Monegasque princess Grace Kelly used it to hide her pregnancy? (Note: The chosen hook is ALT3.)
  • Reviewed: Part II (On the Run)
  • Comment: I'm a guy who has never created a fashion-related article before, so I hope I did a good job. I don't think a picture of a purse was ever featured on DYK (or on Main Page at all), so this might be a good opportunity to freshen things up.

Created by Surtsicna (talk). Self nominated at 09:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC).

  • Not a review here, but some comments. First of all, congratulations on creating your first article of this genre. At first glance, it looks nice. But I have a couple of comments:
  • I'm confused by the first sentence under History where it says the 19th Century prototype was "used for holding a saddle". Maybe you got that concept from Ref #4 that contains "Created in 1892 as a large saddle carrier". I think it meant it was a "carrier" of goods and supplies that cowboys hung on the saddle, the Old West version of a horsey backpack..
  • The hook is short enough but you have two separate ideas going there. And if you're going with the Princess Grace pregnancy, that one needs to be sourced online at the end of the sentence it refers to. Let me suggest this:
— Maile (talk) 14:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for such a quick review, Maile! I'll take it to mean that the subject is interesting. On the 405th page of her book, Valerie Steele says that it was "originally a large bag for holding a saddle". As I am not an equestrianism enthusiast either, I have no idea why one would carry a saddle in a bag, but it appears that that was indeed the bag's original purpose.
I did not know that offline sources are not acceptable; I've used them in dozens of DYKs already and nobody complained. They are usually more reliable and of higher quality compared to websites. Anyway, I've provided a link to the relevant page of the book. As for the two ideas going in the original hook, I was not sure which of them would be most intriguing to someone with little to no interest in handbags (myself included) so I tried to combine both of them. Is there a better way to do so? Or is it obvious that the bag's status and construction complexity are more interesting than its connection with the royal pregnancy (or the other way around)? I also looked for a wording that would describe Grace both as a princess and as a Kelly; we should probably not expect readers to know that she was both. Surtsicna (talk) 15:44, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
:*With all due respect, Valerie Steele is wrong if that's literally what she means (the source is "Restricted" from my view). She doesn't know what she is talking about and has probably copied from another erroneous source, who may have copied it from somewhere else, and who knows the origin, with nobody checking out the accuracy. I was raised around horses. Nobody carries a saddle in a bag. A saddle is huge and extremely heavy. Have you ever seen a movie where anyone sticks a horse saddle into a bag? No. Because a saddle is a huge piece of equestrian equipment.
  • Offline and online sourcing acceptance depends on the reviewer.
  • Ah, now I understand why you wanted it to say Grace Kelly. I'm not sure it's necessary, but I understand why you did that.
  • I also think the part of the hook that amounts to the hours taken to create the bag is really interesting. You could offer it as a secondary hook. Who knows what a promoter might like.
Sticking a tick here just to make sure no one thinks I did a review. I only suggested an Alt hook, which would need to be reviewed by someone else. This nomination still needs a full review. . — Maile (talk) 16:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

This article says: "Created in 1892 as a large saddle carrier -- the French fashion house started out as a saddlemaker -- the bag was downsized for daywear in the 1930s." Is it possible that, by "large", they mean enormous? I don't know. How about we avoid the issue entirely in the hook by using ALT2?

I like ALT2 very much. There is not too much going on in it. In fact, I believe it would make the reader want to find out more. Surtsicna (talk) 16:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Guess what. Saddle Carrier. I stand corrected. I think. I actually envisioned something that had nothing to do with storing it in a horse trailer. This link would support your editing, I think. As for the Alt2, if that's what you like, let's leave it out there and see what a reviewer thinks. If that's your preferred one, the reviewer and promoter might like that one on the front page. — Maile (talk) 18:09, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Oh, silly me! It just occurred to me that your previous concern might still apply to ALT2. I first cut down the number of "ideas" but then saw that you found the hours interesting and added that part, which then made it similar to the original hook. If there is indeed too much information in them, ALT3 might be a suitable alternative - to the other alternatives. Let's see what the reviewer and promoter think. Surtsicna (talk) 18:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I like it. — Maile (talk) 19:20, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment - Just an off-topic chipping in in defence of Valerie Steele - she is a incredibly well-established, highly respected expert on historical dress and textiles, a museum director, curator of multiple exhibitions, and author of many dress history books, plus co-founder of the Dress journal - she is absolutely someone who would know exactly what she is talking about when it comes to this kind of topic. While we all do make the odd mistakes or misinterpretations, even in our fields of expertise, I don't think this is one of them. Mind you, I'm sure I would be equally guilty of suggesting the world expert in fungal genetics didn't know his thing, simply because I wouldn't know him from Adam...! ;) Mabalu (talk) 20:22, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I just hope that possible reviewers won't be deterred by our long discourse! Otherwise it could be weeks until it's reviewed. Surtsicna (talk) 20:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Since the long discourse was caused by me, and you and I prefer ALT3 that you wrote, let me do this review. And I apologize for my willy-wog mis-step on the saddle carrier issue. At least no one can say we "phoned in" the review without reading the article. I see you sourced the Grace pregnancy sentence at the end of it. Job well done.
  • QPQ done by Surtsicna
  • Article moved from User:Surtsicna/Kelly bag on July 20, 2013 and has 2907 characters of readable prose
  • Earwig @ toolserver shows no copyvio
  • Every paragraph sourced
  • ALT3 Hook is interesting, short enough, and sourced at the end of the sentence
  • Article design details of the bag is well-done, and the history is interesting for anyone interested in fashion
  • Image is freely licensed on Commons and should look good on the Main page
  Good 2 go— Maile  (talk) 22:38, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks! I did not blame you for the discourse - my comments are much longer than yours. Anyway, it was very considerate of you to review it. That's probably the best DYK review I've seen. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
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